Evil, I tell you, evil. Big brotha is watching you! Next thing you know they will tell you to shit in camera!

Red light camera are installed solely to coolect money from people. They have nothing to do with safety and everything to do with taking your money.

Great. Where am I going to keep my beaver?

People shouldn't be running red lights.

That said, the cameras can go to hell.

They should be shot on sight.

I have issues with this from a fifth-ammendment standpoint. How can they prove who was driving the car at the time? Also, what's your legal recourse? How can the city prove that the camera didn't go off by accident?
Obviously, I'm in favor of not running red lights, but I'm surprised that red-light cameras have stood up in court for this long, and, in general, I'm opposed to any moves towards living in a state constant government surveillance.

They are bunk - nothing more than a money generating machine. Red light running is a problem but I don't believe this is the solution.

@goatrope: correct.

i imagine one day we'll all have cameras strapped to our nogins to catch us for every infraction.

Thought Crime!

@beercheck: Hey, we're doing that in TN!

Red light cameras = handy scope-zeroing opportunities.

revenue enhancement device.

In San Diego there was a big controversy about them a few years back. It was discovered that the length of the yellow light had been shortened, and that the company controlling the red light cameras were getting a cut from every ticket. Blatant revenue generation, but not just on the city's part.

The cameras were turned off for quite a while after that. In my opinion they should stay off.

At least it's not as bad a speed cameras.

In principle, I don't have a problem with red light cameras and think they could be a good idea. The problem is that, as has already been mentioned, they are installed purely as a revenue generating scheme.

In fact, so keen are they to generate revenue, that the shorten the length of the yellow light to increase the number of offenders. Whereas, studies have shown that increasing the length of the yellow light dramatically reduces accidents.

I hold the same opinion for all traffic enforcement: if you are genuinely trying to improve safety, then good for you; if you are really trying to generate revenue, then do it openly, not under the guise of safety.

Red light cameras = good

[flame suit...on!]

Say what you want about Big Brother, but I think that the most ignorant and dangerous thing that a driver can do is run red lights. Now I would exempt those who find themselves in a situation where jamming on the breaks for a red light would result in a dangerous situation, and in that case drivers should be allowed to throw the challenge flag.

Now speeding cameras...leave those in the UK. That's pure gub'ment greed right there. A 50-cal bullet for each one!

I think they can suck my big fat fucking sausage!

Red Light cameras should be shot.

Oh wait, someone did :)

@lascauxcaveman:
[imagecache2.allposters.com]

Back on topic...it's not cool to run red lights. And by run red lights I mean really run them, not miss the yellow by 0.750 seconds. Those who habitually run red lights per the previous definition should be convinced to stop, and $371 might make some progress towards that end.

But there are 2 serious problems with RLCs.

The first is that we don't know what the tolerance on them is. If I miss the yellow by a fraction of a second, will I get nabbed? Dunno.

The second is the slippery slope/foot-in-the-door debate about privacy in public spaces, government surveillance and security. I sure as hell don't want speed cameras, but those are a logical (illogical?) next step from here.

I try not to think of them at all! I forget what country it is, but they have a more sensible solution, remove the delay from when say for example east/west turns red, the north/south lights immediately turn green. So if you're gonna run that red you better hope there isn't some gearbox in a pu**y magnet Supra waiting for the green!

I don't see the issue. Running a red light is not acceptable. Ever. People that complain about getting one of these tickets complain about the principle, but rarely will you hear them deny running the light.

Start installing speed cameras, however, and I will bust out my pocket constitution and march on Capitol Hill.

I'm technically not opposed to red-light cameras; I just truly do not like how they are used as many above have already stated. My gripe is with the government punishing the owner of the car regardless of whether or not he/she was driving, fifth amendment and all, as Rishi said.

Speed cameras are a whole 'nother story. Speeding only creates problems arguably, there's no definite proof. But then I guess my gripe is with speed limits in general, not necessarily the cameras.

I've got no experience with these (yet), though I have seen a couple around here. I just know I would want to get at one with a rifle and/or baseball bat if it got me for going through a light I just know I wouldn't have been able to stop for (sorry, a 15 year old Escort wagon loaded up with camping gear will not slow from 55 to 0 in 4 seconds).

how does one make a left turn in LA without running a red light?

What are you, a fucking park ranger now?

I think you need them. On my various trips to the States, the red light lottery was the worst thing about driving (LA in particular), especially given your reluctance to embrace the roundabout. As said above, you have to set them properly (you have to be pretty blatant to get flashed by a camera in the UK), but they do work. On the other hand, its a slippery slope towards speed cameras.

Welcome to our world.

Signed, A. Yurrupean.

this is tough. on one hand i despise the big brother aspect but i also live in a city where traffic laws are just suggestions. people here engage in some of the most flagrantly dangerous and uncourteous shit that i'd like to believe some of these a-holes are getting $400 tickets in the mail regularly.
the big brother aspect would probably tilt me away from them as would the kickback to the companies installing them. if we could just find a way to do away with the a-holes...

I know I'm going to catch hell for this, but...

Isn't running a red light illegal? Isn't it potentially very dangerous (inviting the dreaded t bone)?

Being against getting a ticket/fine for going through a red is like getting pissed at getting caught for speeding. You saw the limit, you chose to exceed it, if you get caught, whose fault is that?

---

That said, I do have a problem with the cams. Because there are more than a few grey areas. For example, what if you're doing one of those "there's no way I can make this left turn safely unless I nose out and go when the light turns red and the oncoming traffic has stopped or at least slowed down." Then you're actually doing the safe thing going through on orange or even red light.

And of course, there are a whole range of shades of orange.

Nice Marmot

The cameras are fine if they photograph the face of the person driving, and you prosecute based on that. Tickets based off the plate alone are unconstitutional since the car's owner isn't necessarily the driver.

@sandy the dragon:
That's not running the red-in NYC we have some intersections with red light cameras too, and they don't go off if you're already in the intersection waiting to be able to make a left.

The cameras are just there to stop you from just going through an actual red-not if you're already sitting inside the intersection and waiting to turn-that'd just be silly.

That said, if the yellows have been shortened just for revenue generation that's uncool. But where I drive nowadays idiots constantly ignore the red light and make left turns on red (like an actual left turn on red where you're not already in the intersection), or just straight up run red lights. It's obnoxious enough when you're behind them, let alone when you have the green and some jackass does a turn on their red.

It's a proven fact that they cause MORE accidents, totasl bs, allot about the $$$$$. Like Serj from System said "the bottom line is $$, nobody gives a fuck" It's just gonna get worse with all of the 9/11 paranoia.

@Hookey: The odds of the States installing roundabouts en masse are about the same as us adopting Spanish as the national language or allowing Canada to retain its sovereignty.

@TrackpediaCow: And....twins? What about twins? Automatically guilty, or do you get a free pass if you've got a twin?

@sandy the dragon: Preach it, brother Dragon. Alledgedly, we're getting left turn arrows at 45 intersections by next June under what Mayor Villaraigosa is calling the "Right to Turn Left Initiative." If I remember correctly, most will be in the Valley, and ten or so will be on the Westside. Cost is projected to be $3 million.

Wait, what was the question? Oh yeah, red light cameras...until it can be demonstrated that they're more than just ATMs for government and the camera manufacturers, I say screw 'em.

Running red lights is illegal and dangerous, but if you live in L.A. or whatever where there is no left-turn signals or left-turn lanes, and with a humongous traffic, you HAVE to turn on orange-to-red lights, or you will sit in traffic till forvever. So that's why I say it crop of shit to have those cameras. If you run thru a red light without turning, therefore no reason to run a red light besides the fact that you're risking other people's lives, maybe you need to slow down.

@sandy the dragon:
Wow, I just noticed your name! Excellent choice, Mr. Wong.

Well, personally, and based on UK driving conditions....

Speed cameras on safe, wide, fast roads are disgusting, an infringement of our civil liberties and an indictment of a police state, where we are not allowed to be trusted to make our own judgement. So, for the record, I am vehemently against speed cameras outside areas with pedestrians.

Red light cameras. In the UK, where most sets of traffic lights have a busy pedestrian crossing, and where red light jumpers in London and other built up areas seriously fuck it up for the rest of us, I am in favour of. In the UK, going through a red light is, 90% of the time, ridiculously unsafe. Failing to stop at a red light is, in my view, way more antisocial than speeding.

In the US I would probably say no way. In the UK, to be honest I think we need them.

But revenue-generation cameras where 100mph is safe all day long?

Eat shit.

@osnofla: 8-year-olds, Dude.

@jonnylieberman: Obviously you're not a red light runner.

A few years ago I got a letter from the government. I opened it and read it but it didn't say they were suckers. They didn't want me for The Army or whatever. Instead, they wanted $94.50 for running a red light at the intersection of Cobb Pkwy and Windy Hill Rd.

Picture me givin' a damn! Well, they did as they had nice color pics of my truck blatantly running the red. Did it occur to me the suckers had authority? What does it matter..... they had me and I paid the fine.

I didn't get a raw deal. I ain't lookin for the steel. I'm just lookin for cameras at every intersection.

I'll call it what it is; vendor outsourced automated policing. There's no human element, therefore no subjectivity.

Geekily enough, I think Jean-Luc Picard expressed it best when he said, "Where laws are absolute, there can be no justice". Without the human element, it's just cash collection.

Wait, no amphibious mammals inside city limits?
Oh crap, I know how to swim.

Get t-boned by a soccer mom in a Yukon yapping on her cell phone trying to get "home to the kids" and you will be in support of them. I know first hand and I support red light cameras 110%. If it stops just one accident then it's worth it. Period.

All of you bitchin about them...maybe you should not run red lights, then you don't have to worry about it.

Speed cameras are an abomination. I'm a bit more inclined to support red light cameras due to the danger to others (cross-street traffice, pedestrians) involved in running a red light. But the lawyer in me thinks this has to be illegal. If the camera was from overhead and the cops could play a video in court that shows your car not yet in the intersection as the light goes red, fine. But the speed camera + no real recourse = how do we know it worked correctly? I'd like to think our justice system would at least require the same burden of proof as the NFL instant replay rule: indisputable video evidence.

Oh yeah, and get some municipal judges who aren't just patsys for the police.

I'm not in favor of the cams, but I will say this: Where I live, there's an unwritten rule: "If the guy in front of me can get through the yellow light, so can I!" This has caused me to miss a left-turn light countless times. Oh, oh how I wish those drivers would get nabbed.

This one is a horrible dilemma for me- I work South of Market in San Francisco, where I've almost been killed countless times by red-light runners (and I don't mean the distracted-by-cellphone type, I mean the I-don't-stop-for-lights type) while crossing streets on foot. The intersections on Mission with the red-light cameras are so fucking much safer now that, much as I fear Big Brother, I choose to cross at the intersections with the cameras.

Camera's in the red light districts?? That's gonna hurt the trade. Gotta start wearing a disguise - oh.... never mind....

@Al Navarro: Good point, Al. In Chicago if you ever want to turn left. You have to poke out in the intersection and turn when oncoming traffic stops on the yellow or red. By the way, that is also legal.

As far as traffic cameras in general, I have four words: Big Floppy Donkey Dick.

In Minnesota they had implemented them, but the state supreme court declared that they were unconstitutional since they could not prove that the owner of the vehicle was the person who was in fact driving the vehicle. It's that pesky 'innocent until proven guilty' thing again.

@Garebear: I wouldn't put too much down on those three things not happening...

1) We're starting to get quite a few roundabouts here in central IN (and, now that people have started to figure them out, they do seem to work pretty swell).

2) Have you looked at any products on any store shelf in the last year? Everything's labeled in English & Spanish. Even the stinking doors are labeled in Spanish now, too!

3) As for Canadian sovereignty, I say let 'em keep it. I grew up in Idaho, and it's cold enough there. If you want colder, go to Point Barrow, AK, skip the visa, and be done with it.

@TampaRon: For the record, I totally support the concept of red light cameras, if they are installed in combination with an extended yellow that will allow law abiding drivers to stop in plenty of time and just catch the a-holes.

The way red-light cameras are installed at the moment is nothing short of entrapment. They deliberately set conditions to make it harder to avoid running the red light. It's the same as putting a speed trap at the bottom of the hill right after an unexpected 20 mph drop in the speed limit. It's entrapment and it should be illegal.