Jalopnik
We'll admit it, we've been teases this week. Two forbidden diesels and nary a whisper of fuel economy. Well, today you get the goods. We aren't going to give you the standard "this is what we got in the city and this is what we got on the highway" spiel, because you can find that anywhere. Officially, the Civic does about 41/56, Q7 does 19/21. Booorrr-ing. What we're going to do is hypermile these cars. Although, much like Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men, we're not sure you can handle the truth. To be perfectly honest, we were shocked ourselves. Shocked and giddy, like a bunch of little girls splashing around in a pool of glistening diesel. Before you click through and watch the video, we need to lay down some facts. What we did can be repeated by anyone. There were no tricks, no cheats. Hell, we didn't even make that much of an effort. The footage you're about to enjoy isn't necessarily exciting, but from an engineering standpoint, it's smack-you-in-the-mouth amazing.
Stop! Stop the video right now. I know it's tempting to run it, but we need to tell you exactly what we did first, by the numbers, so you can fully grasp the dramatic results. On the way to and from the Chicago Auto Show—overlooking the comedic jackassery Ray provided—our mission was to see how high we could push the mileage on these cars while driving them in the manner of a your average skinflint consumer. We hacked nothing off the cars to reduce weight, and we added no special taping or streamlining to enhance the aerodynamics. In fact, we really didn't do nuthin' to enhance the mileage capabilities of these rides. As for go juice, the newly de rigeur low-sulfer diesel fuel, as sanctioned by the EPA, was used in all tests. Same stuff you get when you pull up to the pump.
The 2007 Honda Civic 2.2 i-CTDi was tested under what we considered a "normal use" situation, one occupant (myself), with a weekend suitcase and a computer bag. The 2007 Audi Q7 4.2 TDI was tested with myself as the driver and the same cargo setup, but with the addition of our esteemed videographer, Mr. Mark Arnold, and his gear. Again, we recognize we didn't subject these vehicles to precisely the same conditions, but to conditions we consider the average load for each.
The route to Chicago we chose testing the Civic was notably unexciting. We set aside a roughly 105 mile path between the easternmost convenience plaza after the I-69, Toll Road 80/90 interchange, and the Portage convenience plaza. For reasons of personal incompetence, the eastbound return trip occurred between the same Portage convenience plaza and the first northbound I-69 exit after the the 80/90 to I-69 interchange. The only techniques in play where a judicious use of the gas pedal, coasting (for the manual-transmissioned Civic), and drafting behind semis, which was done at a safe but useful two-to-three car lengths. Jalopnik and Gawker Media in no way endorse tailgating semis, so copy this experiment at your own risk.
Now, restart the video.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
Yes, we know, 72.4 mpg is batshit cazy, but settle down, 'cause you haven't heard the Q7 numbers. Would you believe that a power plant capable of 550 lb.ft. of torque and a 6.4s 0-62 mph time, lugging around 5100 lbs and two svelte bloggers, returned 33.2 mpg? What was that about not handling the truth? Below are the conditions and calculations:
We are aware the gallons of fuel on the video for the Civic doesn't match with the calculation above, but we gave it a second squeeze and the final result was what you see. We have the goddamn receipts, skeptics. Soooo, the upshot? Here we have two stock vehicles you can't get in the US, delivering what everybody in their right mind would call impossible mileage, with little effort under less than ideal conditions. What does that mean to us? Well, it means all that bellyaching from automakers about unachievable CAFE targets and the less competitive, unsafe vehicles that would come from high targets is total, unadulterated bull-pucky. The solution to this pressing mileage-target legislation is an absolute no-brainer: Drop a diesel in everybody's lap and call it a day. 35 mpg from a passenger car should be child's play, if done right. This test only confirms—and frankly stokes—our burning desire for good, fun-to-drive, economical diesels on American roads. So where are they? They're elsewhere in the world. But here in the land of freedom and opportunity, the righteous and patriotic boosters of decent mileage numbers are forced to make do with runty gas-burners and do-gooder hybrids that don't exactly reward on the performance front. The times, they gotta change, and there's no reason they can't change like, um, right now.
Video production and voice over credit to Mark Arnold
Comments
Whatever happened to that guy hypermiling supercars/promoting his fractional ownership car club?
Whatever happened to Wert's reunion ride?
Whatever happened to Laura Burstein?
Old-timers like me want to know?!?
Officially, the Civic does about 41/56, Q7 does 19/21.
Those figures are conversions of the European ratings?
(Yes, I realize this is a boring question.)
Great stuff. Wish I had sound (or subtitles). Can't wait to watch when I get home.
Nice work, guys. Hope this makes the rounds on the web!
SO, I feel retarded for literally becoming a Diesel Dyke in the last weeks (Diesel Dyke sounds good to me with 4 hours of sleep)...
This doesn't help... so peeps, how can I grey market an Audi A5 with a GD 3.2 TDI-GD-WTF sam kinison yell.
This is an amazing process that you guys went under and I appreciate the new angle. I wonder if they just gave us Americans only diesel choices, would/could the sales stop... cause if that's all you can buy...
And what do you peeps know about the long terms effects of a large group turning to only diesel.. the low-sulfur is good but does any Jalop among us have knowledge of the other effects? (Similar to E85 hurting the environment more in the long run do to the pollution of the processing blah blah)
@Al Navarro: Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear?
Good piece, btw.
@peabody3684: Increased lung cancer rates, higher ground-level smog, and "London booger syndrome" (blow your nose, black; pick a booger, black)
@ash78: I should also mention that these kinds of results have only been seen in mostly dense, urban areas with close to 50% diesel usage.
And most of those diesels do NOT have particulate filters.
@FreeMan:
I figure if enough of us keep asking the same dumb questions, answers will eventually come. If only I had Polar's energy.
Outstanding job!
Even has the obligatory, "you want diesel in your car? OK..."
@ash78: so with the new low emisions diesels, which the hypothesis revolved around, this effect would be minimized?
So, who do I have to sue to get a 72 MPG Civic in this country?
@peabody3684: Yes...theoretically, the particulate filters--which are often necessary for US compliance, anyway--will also have the effect of reducing those ill health/enviro effects. Fewer particles in the air and in your lungs is always a good thing.
If those numbers aren't a reason for the masses to storm CARB headquarters and demand meaningfully looser emissions regs for diesels, I don't know what is.
33 mpg for a 3-row, V8 SUV is bonkers. And good luck hitting 72 in a Prius. I wonder what the upcoming VW Jetta will be able to return, considering its mill is 200ccs smaller...
@combat chuck: As I said, the California Air Resource board would be a good place to start.
Isn't slipstreaming behind tractor trailers crazy dangerous? I'm all for saving money on gas, but I'd rather survive the trip.
Bring back the Mobil Mileage Tests of the late 50's and early 60's.
They took flocks of cars (of all brands) for drives over long routes with trained drivers at the wheel and scientists checking the real world mileage.
The word "hypermiling" wasn't invented yet, but that's what they were doing.
Coasting downhill, driving easy on the gas, and keeping the engine right in the torque range to achieve best results.
With it's automatic overdrive and special gearing Studebakers won all the time.
It would be interesting to see what happens with todays' autos.
Hey. Portage! You were literally five minutes from my house. Why, oh why did I not know this!
@combat chuck: don't you mean "Shoot"?
Waiting for Detroit/Washington to evacuate its collective head from its anus on this issue isn't getting us very far. I'm ready to be radicalized if it results in getting stuff like Ford's TDI hot hatch over here.
I registered just to comment on this blog post. Those numbers for both cars are very impressive to say the least.
Do you have any numbers for the Civic without the hypermiling techniques? 72mpg is just off the charts for an average speed of 67mph over 100 miles. I'd like to know how much mileage would drop under more "normal" driving conditions.
@ Ben -
the old *low* sulfur fuel in the US contains up to 500ppm sulfur. *Ultra low* sulfur diesel (ULSD) contains no more than 15ppm.
For US-spec T2B5-compatible diesels, you absolutely MUST use ULSD only, or you will damage the NOx aftertreatment system. Lean NOx traps are especially vulnerable but so are the oxidation catalysts in an SCR-based system. The damage isn't immediately obvious, but fill up on LSD a few times and you will fail smog inspections later in the car's life.
Now, these were Euro 4 spec cars that don't feature fancy NOx aftertreatment systems and weren't damaged by the high sulfur levels in the fuel you chose to fill up with.
As for hypermiling, enjoy watching JC drive an Audi A8 diesel from London to Edinburgh and back (800 miles) on a single chock-full tank of fuel (~22 gallons). Also interesting wrt presentation skills.
[video.google.com]
Part 2 has sadly gone AWOL, but you can download the whole episode here:
[www.finalgear.com]
I'ts a shame us americans are delusioned with hybrids because those diesels are way better and probably cost around the same price!
@ash78: In my experience the "London Booger Syndrome" is entirely due to the tube (subway). When I was living there I didn't have that issue unless I'd ridden the tube. I believe it is something to do with metal particles from the wheels/rails.
Of course, that doesn't mean that the air quality in London is fantastic, but the black boogers can be a little misleading.
[jumps on soapbox]
This almost makes up for the motorweek like reviews..
almost.
I could care less about milage. how much can you crank the boost before warning bells start ringing on the dash.
How is the civic at reverse donuts.. can you actually put the civic's torque to good use and flat tow a 52 packard without blowing up the clutch?
Does audi plan to enter a q7 into the next dakar to compete against it's VW sister mobile.. the toureg
Besides.. this review has to be wrong, you've listed two american adult males as being only 330lbs..
How come people who are writing the new blog entries automatically assume we're all enviromentalists and actually give a damn about CAFE and co2 emissions.. I'm with Lutz and Chrysler.
If people were really serious about cars getting better milage, they'd write washington to tell them to lower the manditory safety standards. Why the hell does a civic need to weigh close to 3000lbs!? to do what.. carry you to work everyday?
I can understand why a truck needs to weigh 4400lbs.. it's mass is useful, but a car?
cars in the 80s got better milage than now with crappier engines... including rabbits with crappy diesels.
The problem with the auto industry isn't the car makers, it's the idiots who are trying to protect "X cause of the day" with "weight adding technology"
Heres an idea.. learn how to drive, remove the safety crap, remove the majority of the emissions crap and we'd all use a hell of a lot less fuel.
[jumps off soapbox]
MEH
Just because the automakers *can't* do something doesn't mean you *can't* do something.. give washington the finger.. install a kubota diesel into a crx.. get 150mpg or alternatively.. and old NA 6.5 diesel into a vette and get 55mpg(imp).. [www.thedieselpage.com]
@mwood10: Maybe it is just asbestos brake dust.
@mwood10: Interesting thought. I don't have a London experience that doesn't involve exhaustive tube exposure, so that could be it, too.
@WheatKing: If people were really serious about cars getting better milage, they'd write washington to tell them to lower the manditory safety standards. Why the hell does a civic need to weigh close to 3000lbs!? to do what.. carry you to work everyday?
Have you seen what happens to a car from the 80s when it gets into an accident? I think the increased safety requirements are the best thing that has happened to the auto industry. Sure, it means we get heavier, less agile, less economical cars, but for everyday driving, I'm happy with the trade-off.
@Hyman Decent:
The European numbers are as follows:
*Audi Q7 4.2 TDI Quattro:
City 14.9L/100km. (15.8 MPG)
Hwy 8.9L/100km. (26.4 MPG)
*Honda Civic 2.2i-CTDi
City 6.6L/100km. (35.6 MPG)
Hwy 4.3L/100km. (54.7 MPG)
Taken from:
[autogids.autotrader.nl]
[autogids.autotrader.nl]
Safety standards happen because of the Insurance lobby….
Remember, always follow the money…..
Safer cars = less expensive claims and less claims overall
Wow, those numbers from the Audi are pretty good. Granted, my old Dodge Caravan would get that kind of mileage if you drafted behind semis, but it only had a 3.3 V6 kicking out 150 HP.
@FreeMan: Nicely done, Yossarian.
I had a London experience that involved only some tubage and it was just 1 weekend and I still got the "black snot syndrome". I was wondering why no one has ever mentioned this problem before. It seems rather serious. Though I guess it could be looked at as a potential fuel source for the future, scraping the lungs of expired Londoners.
Ive tried hypermiling my Suburban too. Its pretty amuzing.
On the open highway with 4 adults, suitcases, coolers, camping gear all in the truck, i managed 20.6 mpg with only managing the throttle for a steady 70mph.
Alone in the truck, no gear, drafting semis, taking 2 miles to accelerate, coasting UP hills I managed 25.4 mpg out of my 6000lb, Vortec 5.7 V8 4x4 over a 250 mile trip.
The real trick i found was the drafting with a brick like that. It let the engine cruise a couple hundred rpm lower than normal.
Great series. It really does hurt automakers arguments that 35MPG is untenable. It also hurts CARB's anti-diesel policies.
CARB was once a sensible idea, but now it is just another outlet for anti-car crusaders.
Very well executed project, guys.
Hopefully this will be linked as a source the internet-over as evidence of just what could be accomplished if arbitrary hurdles were removed.
My faith in our legislature's ability to regulate with the public's best interest in mind wanes ever farther.
Tangentially related, I'm hoping to have an ex-Army 6.2L diesel Chevy as a beater pickup sometime in the near future. With some love on the intake/exhaust and a manual trans, you're getting mid-20s from a 20 year old 1 ton pickup.
Bra-freaking-vo. I've been looking for more data to rub into the face of my Prius loving/owning and diesel hating brother and you've provided me the much needed one-up on the superiority of the diesel cycle.
@WheatKing: As much as I love reading about the new Vette and SRT8 whathaveyou's, I'm also interested in what's the cutting edge on commuting appliances, where, like or not, Wheatking, MPG is becoming the name of the game. Showing what is possible, even commonplace, with existing diesel technology adds a bit of perspective to things like the the misguided ethanol craze, etc.
The numbers in this article don't really surprise me, I've done a bit of hypermiling stuff in my crapbox Camry and my wife's old Subaru AWD Legacy, and noticed a real difference. That the effect is even more pronounced in an inherently more efficient modern diesel engine shouldn't surprise anyone who's thought about it.
Glad you see you didn't make use of some of the more 'extreme' hypermiling techniques that I've seen glorified by some of the more visible hypermiling crazies. I swear I still have rage blackouts thinking about some of the techniques I've read about (and encountered on the road!!!).
@TomAnderson: Preliminary numbers on the Jetta SportWagen TDI are 55MPG, though those aren't the official EPA numbers and that is for the wagon.
@rgseidl: Excellent info on the NOx and ULSD. It is also worth nothing that pre-2007/2008 diesel powerplants will get 10% lower mileage running ULSD, though that is the only side effect I've heard of running the new fuels in an older engine. There are additives claiming all sorts of things with ULSD and old engines, but none of it has been proven.
@mwood10: He's a Canadian Loon, he has no idea what he is talking aboot.
@Mikeee: The official number I've seen in the UK is 55MPG so I can only assume that is Imperial Gallons.
@WheatKing: "remove all the emissions crap" ...great idea. Have you ever been to a third-world metropolis?
@Mad_Science: There is absolutely nothing keeping this car from our shores other than Honda. In the next 2 years diesels are going to flood the marketplace as everyone finishes up development on ULSD compatible powerplants.
M-B already has theirs on the market, VW's is coming this summer/fall, Chrysler has an engine in the pipe and Honda/Toyota are expected to have a diesel offering in the coming years.
The US now has the strictest diesel emissions requirements in the world and the result is amazing progress and a pending rash of "50 state" diesels that will take the diesel image out of the dark age. Win-Win.
I tried some modified hypermiling in my '94 Civic, and got 47mpg. Not bad for a 253,000 mile engine! I had been getting 38mpg, doing the exact same mix of driving.
I tried some constant-throttle driving last w/e while using my '93 dodge cummins to tow a 4 wheel flat trailer up to VA and back. Up I averaged a hair over 20 mpg- and that's a 4wd, 6000# truck towing a #1500 trailer at average speeds of 65mph! Back I only got about 15, but I had a 1964 Dodge Dart on top of the trailer and was towing into 40mph headwinds. The dodge sits 6' tall and has the aerodynamics of a brick. At high speeds, aerodynamics are more important to fuel economy than weight. That's why drafting 18-wheelers helps so much. Heck, you see 18-wheelers drafting each other. Now you know why.
This is the real explanation of why they don't want diesel cars in this country. It's all about $$$
2005 Jeep Liberty Diesel, Minneapolis, MN to Charleston, SC, 70 mph interstate, 32.5 MPG.
I can easily believe the results on your short trip.
Diesels rock.
@eltonito: Everything I've seen points to Honda offering this exact engine in the Accord by this fall (MY09). I'm pretty psyched to see if it is capable of anything close to the Civic.
I hate to be the proverbial turd in the punch bowl, but all this giddiness over oil burners is nothing but energy conservation. Conservation of a diminishing and increasingly costly resource. And I, for one, am just not into helping some dung eating Arab maintain his obscene lifestyle. People forget the WWII German war machine operated almost entirely on synthetic oil. I reckon the quicker we use up the oil, the sooner viable alternatives will appear. So the answer isn't cute little plastic cars with Yurppean diesels, but more gas guzzlin' hemis with carbon footprints the size of Yorkshire.
I've got an 04 Jetta TDI for sale... *********SUPER*********HYPERMILING********POTENTIAL********!!!!!
Actually it's not for sale until I get the Sprite running again. But then it's on, craigslist+hyperbole=PROFITS!
My GTI typically reports 29 mpg on my highway commute, and by being a little less aggressive at stoplights, I usually get 27 mpg out of each tank on average.
I would love to see a twincharger version of the new low emissions diesel. I'd keep my 0-60 times and get 50 mpg.
@TomAnderson: Yes, please keep CARB busy with this stuff to get their minds off the three or four people who want to run longtube headers.