Clueman

Captain_Spadaro

I've seen plenty of footage on YouTube of kids driving that fast on the freeway cutting in and out of traffic - that's stupid. It doesn't sound like Josh was like that - it sounds like he tried to find a responsible way to enjoy a car that was too powerful for his limited experience.

It's pretty clear what happened: He top speeded the car, enjoyed 155 MPH for a few seconds, and hit the brakes. He had done it many times before without a problem, but this time he had an extra 600+ lbs in the car from passengers, and this extended both the distance to reach 155 MPH and the distance to stop.

According to people's calculations, he was going around 70 MPH. A BMW M5 can go from 70 MPH to a stop in under 200 ft, even with those passengers on board. At 155 MPH, you travel 227 ft per second.

So if Josh had hit the brakes 1 second earlier, he would have stopped with 27 ft to spare. Probably on past solo runs he had a quarter mile to spare.

Unfortunately, racing safely is tricky business and the only way to drive fast safely is on a track under the guidance of experienced racers.

No one should give a kid a fast car, but if your kid likes driving fast, get him to a high performance driving school at your local race track.

xanderale

Yes... driving 140 MPH is "safe". He knows better now.......

OneMHz

It changes the launch speed only a little bit, up to 66 mph, but it decreases the energy contribution from the fall.

Doesn't change impact speed much either, ups the estimate to maybe 80mph impact speed. Does lower the flight time to the correct for 70 foot fall 2.09 seconds mentioned elsewhere.

I wonder what the orientation of the car was on impact? What part hit first?

comedian

thescientist

That's not how accident reconstruction engineers define elasticity. It's when the steel rips instead of deforming. You still need adequate velocity to rip the structural steel cage of the car. While the branch shapes might cause a different kind of damage, you still need velocity. Yes the BMW is heavier and has more kinetic energy for a given speed, but that weight is because of the safety cage. Otherwise you'd be able to say that a BMW is more dangerous in a high speed crash than a 20-year-old civic.

"As Comedian pointed out at 7:25PM yesterday, the M5 had a lot of energy due to its weight, # of passengers and speed - which was he figures to be closer to 76mph since it was falling as well as moving forward."

Like I said in the today's thread, you might be right but I won't be surprised if the speed is faster.

Solo_Racer

MotownWonker

How was this 68 mph arrived at?

Solo_Racer

It isn't just a shame that there were four other kids in the car. It's likely that the four extra kids were a contributing factor.

Torque

In the forum the kid comes across as pretty mature, forthright, and considering his machine carefully. Reading between the lines, though, we see he's trying to wrangle more and more out of it. Well, more and more when you're already playing with a car that can do TRIPLE the speed limit is spitting at Death. Death won't shrug that off for long.

Maturity online has no bearing behind the wheel. The kid had more than he could handle, and a parent who permitted that. And once he was behind the wheel, the kid kept trying to handle it. He should've parked it.

I damn near wound myself and three other cars into a French braid, hooning a SVO Mustang. It was (at the time) the most powerful car I had ever driven. The mighty roar was heady, intoxicating. After escaping disaster in that car, which I emphatically did not own, everything I drove after that I treated like it was made of spun glass.

Elhigh

The members of that forum sure called it.

danio3834

MotownWonker

sliderule

But anywho... there's more. A friend of mine [with in-laws in Anthony, FL less than a mile from the airstrip] walked this accident scene about 6 hours after impact. Besides the obvious burned bloody mess around the old oak tree, my friend says the berm is about 80' high relative to the runway, essentially a ramp that'd make Evel Knievel grin ear to ear: some strange man-made topo feature that doesn't translate well in aerial photos such as this: [wikimapia.org]

Friend also reported one of Travolta's neighbors heard the M5 approx 10 minutes prior to crash time (~0330 EST) making multiple high speed passes. The man then drove out to tell the kids to beat it - but was passed by a screaming V10 at well over 120+ (best estimate) - so he turned home and called johnny law instead. Minutes later... crash.

Gaseous Clay

MotownWonker

This is obviously a tragedy for the family and the friends' families. We have all done stupid things in our younger days, I know I sure as hell did. I am lucky to be alive especially having driven my BMW much faster and harder than that when I was 18 as well. It sucks to see a great BMW die, but, it sucks even more to see some kids/enthusiasts go down with it...

Rest In Peace boys...

RawAutos

I was thinking about this on my commute home and it occurred to me I had made one more unstated assumption. I had assumed that the car launched off of the flat edge of the runway, and not first run along the tapering down ground next to the runway before going airborne.

In my haste I'd also forgotten to point out that in a vacuum the flight (fall) time from 85 would be the same (given a zero degree launch angle) regardless of launch speed. Double checking my flight time I come up with 2.35 seconds to fall 85 feet in a vacuum at 1g of acceleration. They would take a tiny bit longer with a zero degree launch angle, given aerodynamic drag.

To land 200 feet away from the end of the runway, 85 feet down, they'd have to be going just about 60 miles per hour when they took off.

I know the car looks a lot worse then a strike at 60 mph, but don't forget it would begin accelerating (downward) as soon as it was airborne, gaining speed (and energy) from gravity.

The car will pick up the energy it gains from the 85 foot fall. In the fall the car and passengers will pick up an additional half a million joules of energy (2000 kg x 9.8 m/s/s x 25.9 m)

Launching at 60mph, the car would have hit the tree at just about 74-76 miles per hour. I computed this using an energy calculation (required velocity for original kinetic energy plus gravitation potential energy), and double checked my math doing a vector sum (~60 mph horizontal component of vector and ~44 mph vertical component) which kicks out around the same amount. (Lots of rounding.)

One more bit on the braking model of car and driver versus bus driver and passengers. Again, assuming brakes that don't fade, stopping exactly at the edge of the runway, hitting the brakes at exactly the same place and braking distance limited by the brakes ability to dissipate heat and not limited by traction, boiling brake fluid, bad aerodynamics or the like, here's some more napkin math.

Driver makes 140 mile solo run and stops fine braking at point x.

Driver loads car up with 600 pounds of friends (I've fattened them up to 150 pounds per American weight.) but this time gets up to 143 miles per hour showing off, brakes at same point x. That's all it would take to sail off edge at around 60 mph.

The killer is kinetic energy. Braking energy grows with the square of velocity, and braking distance is bounded on the bottom by the same function.

What I mean by that is that this is all a best case scenario.

Reality, as shown in this tragedy, is often a lot worse.

comedian

How many of us out there in Jalop land haven't done something stupid like this only got away with it with our lives?

LandofMinos, Don't you fucking look at me!

MotownWonker

Solo_Racer

MotownWonker

MotownWonker

suttree

Flight time varies a bit shorter if they hit ground then skidded/rolled into trunk, a tiny bit longer if they hit far above ground and then fell down.

comedian

The closest tree to the end of the runway has branches about 60 horizontal feet from the closest point of the runway, with its primary trunk 115 or so feet from the closet point on the North end of the runway.

The captain estimates a flight time of 2.25 to 2.5 seconds. (To fly 110 feet from a height of 85 feet, height of berm from linked article with distance to trunk from Google earth).

Pure napkin math only, but high degree of confidence.

comedian

"With all do respect, gradually learn your car before you turn off DSC. With a little mistake combination of your mind and your right foot, you can be history.

Be safe and enjoy

P.S. People on this board care about each other especially when someone own 500hp car at age of 18. Don't take it personal. We all watch each other back. Nobody want to see any incidents like sunset blvd incident or arizona incident involved MB E63"

poxpopulus

poxpopulus

"M5froth I completley understand where you are coming from assuming that I am irresponsible..that is definetly understandable. I do sometimes make bad decisions but I am young and I do drive safe and I will not endanger the lives of others..and I hope you are not under the impression that I am the one to brag, I have never been that way and never will. Plus I will have pictures up asap with me in the pictures. I have no reason to lie buddy."

poxpopulus

SigmundTheSeaMonster

poxpopulus

Silverman

[www.m5board.com]

Theres a forum where this kid is talking about doing it..and how hes going to post pics tomorrow..(which would be today)..and hes dead now.

also one guy in the thread saying something about how he'll end up killing him and his friends if he's not careful

danio3834

jrhmobile

Skydiver

Elhigh

danio3834

The way I see it, a group of harcore hoons go down in a blaze of glory.

danio3834

Having said that, when I was sixteen years old I plowed my father's old 528e into a guardrail. Had I been driving a lesser car, I wouldn't be here to make snarky comments, but that Bimmer (with some basic structural elements dating back to the original 1972 5-series) saved me. My only injury was a single bruise: a purple stripe across my chest where the seatbelt had held me in place. I feel bad for the children--you'll notice I'm using the word "children" rather than "passengers"--who died, but I can't help but ask what on earth that boy's parents were thinking when they bought him a 500-horsepower car, especially when I almost killed myself with a 127-horsepower M20/eta six. I suppose rich kids with fast cars have always been a problem; one of my mother's high school classmates died in 1966 in a brand-new 7-litre Galaxie. But cars are getting much faster, and rich kids (and their parents) are just as stupid as they ever were. This sort of thing breaks my heart, and I have the feeling it's going to keep getting more and more common.

To all the happy young hoons out there, I say one thing: be careful.

Armand Bengle

Euromobile

Interesting. Makes a strong case for a cable-actuated throttle, doesn't it?

Unevolved

mjgolli

lanispet

orangeroller

Daga

140mph / 60mph = 2.33 ratio of speeds

2.33 ^ 2 = 5.44 square of ratio of speeds, the ratio of energies to be dissipated

5.44 * 112 = 609 feet to dissipate energy at same rate that the 60 to zero stop required, assuming no fade or decrease in braking performance from massive energy dump.

I didn't pull the 600 foot guesstimate out of my ass. I am working, degreed mechanical engineer. (And a lawyer, at least in NY state, but that, as they say, is a whole " 'nother " story.)

I'll admit that the 800 foot guess is a bit more seat of the pants.

I was trying to account for the fact that the added 500 pounds (I had assumed these were all skinny teenagers) adds about 10-15% to the kinetic energy, but likely introduces some less than desirable aerodynamic and weight transfer effects that certainly would not help the braking situation.

comedian

Miscellanea, now on the main floor!

Not the first time a BMW has hugged a tree with deadly results.

TBlueMax

smokeydog001

BuddyHinton

Mysterious Utility Bento

TPSreports

Our company made the roofing material for Travolta's house. It's pretty cool to see something I helped make on a high-profile place like that. We also did the roof on Bill Gate's house. We usually do commercial stuff only, but there are a few exceptions like these.

This is a sad story IMO even if the driver was acting stupid. I don't envy the first people on the scene of that accident.

AllenK

saabophile2

-chet

Mike the Dog

BuddyHinton

jdepould

I have read that collisions with trees are the single greatest cause of auto-related deaths. Just a few blocks from me on an ordinary residential street 3 high school kids were killed, missed a slight curve while speeding, and hit a rather small tree. All 3 drinking. All 3 dead. The tree has a small bark scar.

I wonder how the BMW would have nailed the landing in one piece had it just hit the ground vs. sliced in two by tree.

NovaloadMissesPolar

@Uncle Trash: Personally, I would carefully consider getting in an M5 with a teenager behind the wheel (unless he was a professional driver with a decade of experience). Of course, I'm in my mid-30's now and already passed that "death wish" stage of life in my teenage years. At 18, I probably would've gladly gone for a joy ride in an M5. Heck, I probably would've asked to drive.

TBlueMax

offyatindy

I figure it would be over 600 feet for a car and driver, but with another 500 pounds in the car I figure it could easily be over 800 feet.

All this assuming you can keep the headlights forward facing and the shiny side up.

comedian

IamZardoz

cyclopticgaze

Though sometimes merely surviving places you in the latter category I suppose.

cyclopticgaze

firepwr

POLAЯMISSESEVEЯYBODY

Too bad Tom Cruise wasn't there to help them. Only he could have saved them.

dolo54

While I find I feel for the passengers, though not as much after learning more about them, typically one should know better. They were certainly all old enough. It wasn't like there was a 13 & 14 year old dragged along for the ride. That, IMO, is much sadder.

What was left out of the commentary was somewhat important:

"Troopers believe the car traveled over the 80- to 85-foot high embankment at the end of the airstrip and struck the three about 15 fee above the ground. The car broke into two pieces upon impact. The tree lost three leaves."

Mother nature will kick your ass if you don't respect physics.

Kelly

Well, the 21yo "friend" of these suckers the Ocala paper interviewed was on his 2nd M5, as his old one wasn't fast enough. So, apparently if you don't have one in this gated community, you're a sore loser.

By loser, I mean probably humbly living.

Those poor kids sprayed more carbon over that airstrip than Travolta's 707 on it's way to the last Global Warming Summit.

-chet

"
Let me say I am beginner when it comes to high performance cars as I am only 18 so take it easy on me."

Ellomdian

workingonyourinvoice

Dr.Danger, I run the Death Star

anaxomander

Joshua Ammirato... had been ticketed four times in less than two years, court records show.

The last ticket that Ammirato, 18, received was on Jan. 23, just a couple of days before he and four other young men died in the fiery crash. The offense: violation of traffic control device.

March 15, 2006, driving between 20 and 29 mph over the speed limit.

June 2006, driving between 1 and 9 mph over the speed limit and for driving with a suspended license

Unregular

Unregular

Pete Gaines

BuddyHinton

BlackIce_GTS

 
Runway 36 you are cleared for departure.

comedian

MotownWonker

Who's starting up the "Save the M5's" teeshirt fund?

BuddyHinton

Good to know.

pres_has something cool after his name too.

Google Maps view of berm and trees.
 

Bonus view of Travolta's house and 707 parked out front.

comedian

SRTSIX

Parramore64

UDMan

franzouse

yellofury * * * * *

POLAЯMISSESEVEЯYBODY

AmishJohn

Uncle Trash

-chet

KVHnik

Mike the Dog

SRekauqh

zamafir

-chet

TBlueMax

TampaRon

roberto

rgseidl

danio3834

NICKNICK