I take offense, Miss Martin, on your highly inaccurate stereotyping of libertarians as nerds. I consider myself a "small 'l'" libertarian, and I like to think I'd be one of those Hilux-driving warlords in the great utopian future you describe!
As on old geezer sprung form two railroad grandfathers, trains always preferred freight to people--way more money. To this day, and throughout my life, Amtrak has become as inconvenient as possible (Yes, the train leaves at 4:30 a.m....) and routes have shrunk.
It was like a game of Clue to figure out where the train would be at what time and some stations are only "stop on demand"--oh, and in DC, they take off the fast engines and put on the slow ones for the Crescent (a.k.a. "Sidewinder" for its frequent derailments) and other south-bounders. But it's still cost competitive against driving and flying--like 80 bucks from Richmond VA to New Haven CT. I would gladly take a commuter train to my job--except there isn't one.
My European friends are always shocked that a country this size has so little rail service.
Do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk, ice cream? Ice cream, Mandrake? Children's ice cream!...You know when fluoridation began?...1946. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual, and certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works. I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love...Yes, a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I-I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence. I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women, er, women sense my power, and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid women, Mandrake...but I do deny them my essence.
@Bailout: The government pays for roads with dollars from motorists. The government pays for air travel with dollars from motorists. The government pays for trains with dollars from motorists.
One of these things is not like the other. One of these things makes sense.
Motorists pay for the roads on which they travel through on-road fuel taxes and tolls.
Air travel and railways actually cost the traveler less than the cost involved in operation.
The war is about ideology, not oil. Regardless of how ruthless the dictator is in any oil producing country, if we keep paying for the oil, they'll keep sending it over. Starting a war is counter productive, capitalistically.
@smalleyxb122: Are you saying the federal highway system is fully funded by gas taxes? Or what are you saying? And other roads, state highways, county roads, city streets?? All paid by motorists?
A quick look at Wikipedia (admittedly, not the best source) indicates that the interstate highway system is not fully funded by gas taxes but relies on general government revenues as well.
You seem to be indicating that not only is it completely paid by motorists, but that motorists also fund rail and air?
Do you have a source for that information supporting your statements?
@Mr. Moto: Excluding the gas tax question, EVERYBODY uses our road network, even if they're in the small minority who only walk, bike or take the bus. Therefore, the taxes everyone pays go to support the roads, plus to support rail and air systems used by far fewer people.
@Mr. Moto: It's difficult to get a precise answer to your question since most records don't break revenue and expenditures down sufficiently. From a records keeping perspective, not all of highway spending comes from taxes and tolls, but neither does all revenue from taxes and tolls go toward highway spending. (some of it is itemized as subsidies for public transit).
Roughly speaking, most years, the total revenue would be about equal to highway spending if you take Highway patrol out of the equation.
However, records wise, the revenue falls short, and is subsidized primarily by property taxes (presumably by those businesses and residences that benefit from the roadway)
The taxes from fuel are mostly reserved for transportation, and most of that goes toward roadways, but officially, some goes toward public transit.
Most statistical data supports the perception that fuel taxes equate to a near net-zero use tax.
Back to your citing Wikipedia: I have no real issues with what is stated there, but while it mentions generous public funding, (what I assume you are referring to), it ignores that the vast majority of those public funds are from fuel tax (which is mostly earmarked specifically for transportation spending).
@scottcom36 has Weekday DT's, Weekend OD's: Well stated. I almost had a very similar sentiment in my long winded response. Mine was poorly worded in comparison, so I'm glad that I removed it before submission.
@Bailout: This isn't a blanket condemnation of government subsidies for transportation, or even rail transportation. It's a condemnation of subsidies for Amtrak.
@Murilee Martin: The problem, really, is that Amtrak is subsidized either too much, or not nearly enough. It either needs to be taken out back and shot, then replaced with something that works, or have enough money thrown at it to rebuild exclusive passenger train tracks and replace routes that were ripped out long ago. People don't use Amtrak, because its slow, but its slow because they have to share the rails with freight trains in most places. People don't use it because its expensive, but its expensive because its very low volume, as they don't have routes in places people want.
@Bailout: I wouldn't call using tax dollars for road maintenance subsides. A better example is the bridge to nowhere. It was a bridge that was only built to help a few people, and the was only possible do to government funding.
In my opinion, rail needs to be fast, efficent and most importantly, run by people who are NOT tied down by the the government looking over their shoulder. Because me, when the government gets involved in the world of business, things never turn out well.
At the tender age of 14 I traveled to the Second Annual West Coast Computer Faire in San Jose (1978). My adult fellow-computer nerd traveling companion and I rode the then-new BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) metro system along every one of the four lines then running. The highlight was traveling UNDER the bay to Oakland, sitting in the front-left bench of the front train, and watching the digital speedometer climb and decline through the glass door to the 'conductor's' cabin.
Maglev's are expensive per mile of track, compared to other fast train designs. Also, the huge field coils can screw with people's pacemakers. Some researchers think that the large EM fields could have other deleterious effects too, but the jury is still out on that one.
I've been on it twice, it's pretty amazing. The train leans slightly into the corners, which isn't as disconcerting as you would think. It's 40RMB for a round trip from the airport, and once you get to LongYang station you still have to take a bus to downtown Shanghai (if you don't spend 15RMB poking around the maglev museum there). Meanwhile, if you're not in a hurry a bus costs a measly 10RMB round-trip from the airport right to downtown.
It's amazing how technological process manages to render traveling at 200+mph, once thought to be as impossible as reaching the moon, as calm, serene, and even slightly boring. See the Shinkansen for more proof.
Still, if only America had the motivation to build these in the Eastern corridor - we can't get Acela working properly, why not tear it down and build a maglev instead?
A maglev connecting Los Angeles to Las Vegas would probably have potential for a huge revenue stream; just require that all tickets are sold as round-trip, so the losers at the casinos can still make their way home...
We see a lot of new hybrid vehicles with electric motors. It would be really nice if we could retrofit our existing interstate highways with an 'electric lane', where you could pull into the lane, type in your destination exit, and the car essentially becomes an electric train car taking you there on mains power. This is one of the reasons I really really want something like a 1961 Lincoln with a series turbodiesel electric. Can you imagine how cool road trips would be with a big boat like that, and a few buds, letting the car drive itself to the secondary road exit? Outrageous!
Long Yang to Pudong in 7 minutes? The jokes just write themselves... Seriously though, I am also a big fan of trains, and I find this technology quite exciting.
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was starred
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was unstarred
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was starred
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was unstarred
One has to wonder why my country continues to send millions foreign aid per year to a country that not only has it's own space program, but maglev trains and countless other technical advancements that we do not and cannot enjoy at home.
Where's my maglev train to get me from hamilton to downtown toronto, or barrie to toronto, or from calgary to edmonton, or from vancouver to calgary..
ya ya.. jealous.. you betcha.. my tax dollars at work.. I need to get outta this frozen wasteland.
@WheatKing: I've now heard four high-level conversations about the feasibility of installing a high-speed (for North America) train from Edmonton to Calgary. The tidbits I heard was that, because Highway 2 is divided basically from downtown Edmonton all the way to downtown Calgary, it would be quite feasible to run tracks the whole way, right between the highways, without any major infrastructure needing to be redesigned or changed.
But the planning (or, plotting, to be more accurate) for all this was taking place back when oil was at $150, and Alberta was swimming in budget surpluses so huge they didn't know what to do with it all.
07/06/09
One does make money moving freight! - CSX Exec ???
I would love to see monorails to/from towns. But that isn't profitable...
07/05/09
Except I drive a Dodge.
07/04/09
It was like a game of Clue to figure out where the train would be at what time and some stations are only "stop on demand"--oh, and in DC, they take off the fast engines and put on the slow ones for the Crescent (a.k.a. "Sidewinder" for its frequent derailments) and other south-bounders. But it's still cost competitive against driving and flying--like 80 bucks from Richmond VA to New Haven CT. I would gladly take a commuter train to my job--except there isn't one.
My European friends are always shocked that a country this size has so little rail service.
07/04/09
07/04/09
07/05/09
07/04/09
Who do you think pays for roads?
Who do you think who pays for war in the middle east to keep the oil coming?
But trains aren't in style. So THAT mode of transportation alone should stop receiving subsidies.
07/04/09
One of these things is not like the other. One of these things makes sense.
Motorists pay for the roads on which they travel through on-road fuel taxes and tolls.
Air travel and railways actually cost the traveler less than the cost involved in operation.
The war is about ideology, not oil. Regardless of how ruthless the dictator is in any oil producing country, if we keep paying for the oil, they'll keep sending it over. Starting a war is counter productive, capitalistically.
07/04/09
A quick look at Wikipedia (admittedly, not the best source) indicates that the interstate highway system is not fully funded by gas taxes but relies on general government revenues as well.
You seem to be indicating that not only is it completely paid by motorists, but that motorists also fund rail and air?
Do you have a source for that information supporting your statements?
Just interested in knowing one way or another.
07/04/09
07/04/09
Roughly speaking, most years, the total revenue would be about equal to highway spending if you take Highway patrol out of the equation.
However, records wise, the revenue falls short, and is subsidized primarily by property taxes (presumably by those businesses and residences that benefit from the roadway)
The taxes from fuel are mostly reserved for transportation, and most of that goes toward roadways, but officially, some goes toward public transit.
Most statistical data supports the perception that fuel taxes equate to a near net-zero use tax.
Back to your citing Wikipedia: I have no real issues with what is stated there, but while it mentions generous public funding, (what I assume you are referring to), it ignores that the vast majority of those public funds are from fuel tax (which is mostly earmarked specifically for transportation spending).
So, I guess the answer is yes and no.
07/04/09
07/04/09
07/04/09
07/04/09
In my opinion, rail needs to be fast, efficent and most importantly, run by people who are NOT tied down by the the government looking over their shoulder. Because me, when the government gets involved in the world of business, things never turn out well.
07/05/09
07/05/09
12/14/08
Yeah, I do lurve me some trains...
12/14/08
12/14/08
It's amazing how technological process manages to render traveling at 200+mph, once thought to be as impossible as reaching the moon, as calm, serene, and even slightly boring. See the Shinkansen for more proof.
Still, if only America had the motivation to build these in the Eastern corridor - we can't get Acela working properly, why not tear it down and build a maglev instead?
12/14/08
go CHSR, go!!
12/14/08
12/14/08
12/14/08
12/14/08
12/14/08
12/14/08
12/14/08
12/14/08
12/14/08
12/14/08
Where's my maglev train to get me from hamilton to downtown toronto, or barrie to toronto, or from calgary to edmonton, or from vancouver to calgary..
ya ya.. jealous.. you betcha.. my tax dollars at work.. I need to get outta this frozen wasteland.
12/15/08
But the planning (or, plotting, to be more accurate) for all this was taking place back when oil was at $150, and Alberta was swimming in budget surpluses so huge they didn't know what to do with it all.