"Naked Traffic" is patently not the same as the absence of thought in the roads of Jakarta, Mexico City, Mumbai and Cairo.
It is the removal of signs and lights that give us a false sense of security. It involves close planning, promoting flow and communication between all forms of traffic. Roundabouts (by design) require you to slow down, thereby eliminating getting t-boned by someone who missed a red light.
Additionally, sitting dead still at (often entirely useless) red lights drives at least me rather batty, and leads to impatience and irritation which can cause accidents.
I have been telling people about the Drachten experiment for years, but I guess I can pipe down now.
It's also waaaaay too easy to get a driver's license here in the US. Imagine racing if everyone had fundamental differences in the way they drive, take racing lines, brake, etc. There'd be a death every race. It should take a full year to get a DL with dynamics training for the plebes to understand the laws of physics before heading out onto the road.
@CatherineNoodle: The roundabouts here in Virginia reduced collisions considerably in every place they have been introduced. The biggest problem with them is that American's are scared to death of them because they are not used to having to think behind the wheel however even American's can navigate a traffic circle if you force them to.
They work very good just get some damn balls and do it.
Have Dr. Gerald Wilde's theories been peer reviewed? Have they been developed well enough so that other researchers can validate them by conducting repeatable experiments where confounding variables are accounted for?
Are his results culturally bound? Will the same or similar results occur in Mumbai? Rio? Los Angeles? Tokyo?
@zentinal: They put a roundabout in Gordonsville Virginia at junction notorious for collisions and has been very successful in reducing fatalities. I've heard of a couple of fender benders but no deaths like there used to be. They work very well and as I said before people just need to sack up and go through the damn thing.
I call BS. The theory that poorly marked roads are safer only works because drivers perceive a difference between their normal safe roads and the "challenging" road that forces them to pay more attention to driving. However, if all roads were "challenging" then it become the new norm and drivers would be as distracted as they are on normal roads today.
This reminds me of an editorial Patrick Bedard once wrote in Car and Driver. He advocated a speed limit of 100 mph on many freeways. The reason being that the level of concentration required to maintain civil traffic and decorum would be much higher than what drivers then displayed. I recall this was written in the early 1990's.
Having had the pleasure of driving on German autobahns and secondary roads, I can agree with a good deal of Bedard's reasoning. Attentive drivers make driving that much better.
@evoCS-Hench-Minion to the stars: That must have been when Bedard still had sense then? Haven't seen that from him in a while, at least not since he's gone all Limbaugh on us. I agree with his sentiment in this case. We get there both faster and safer! Who loses?
@OM617952: They died....only because we are stupid drivers that want to be told what to do instead of think a little. Once your used to them you will wonder how you lived without them. Every study ever done shows that they are FAR more efficient at helping you get to your destination much faster than with stoplights.
@slimwhitman: Its also a much less frustrating experience to be allowed to keep driving and not stopping at every intersection while driving on surface streets.
The difference in my perception of time while riding a scooter, where I'm allowed to keep moving for the most part, versus a car where I'm stuck IN traffic is enormous.
Even if its not faster, its still nicer to be moving rather than crawling to stop light after stop light.
@OM617952: Agreed x10. traffic circles are the communist's play on traffic mgmt systems. instead of making some wait while others continue, they slow it down for everyone.
@zeeboid:
Yes, traffic circles are a communist plot. Are you retarded?
Have you ever stopped at a red light and had to wait even though there was no cross-traffic? With traffic circles you merge in and dont' ever have to stop. If that's communism... bring it on.
@Botswana Meat Commission FC: I call BS on the "don't ever have to stop" crap. instead of sometimes rocking through at the posted speed limit, and sometimes having to come to a complete stop (as with lights) isntead you have to slow your happy butt down to a crawl if there is ANY traffic what-so-ever #trafficsigns
Halleluiah! It’s about time. And an extreme relief to know I’m not the only one who’s long suspected the proliferation of traffic control devices are a significant factor in today’s frustrating traffic patterns.
The last 10 years have seen a woeful disregard for basic civil and traffic engineering. I used to think it was a "Kentucky thing" but when I visit the folks in Chicago, or travel elsewhere, the list of offenses is uniform and interminable:
- Pylons installed to prevent U-turns, or installed to prevent left turns across traffic. Newsflash: if traffic is such that these maneuvers are commonplace and need to be regulated, it speaks to *poor design and planning*, NOT a need for more control devices, which only serve to compound confusion and frustration and relocate stupid maneuvers and accidents a little further up the road.
- New outdoor shopping "pavilions" and "townes" (because "malls" are obsolete) with needlessly curvy access roads that meander behind and around and practically through structures and obstructive landscaping. Because making it difficult to see where intersections, signs, and secondary access roads originate from until it’s too late is a sure-fire way to foster a pleasant shopping experience. Thanks to this crap, I shop at Amazon.
- Speedbumps every 30 yards, where a few designated crosswalks should otherwise suffice. Who's more at fault for this: drivers who speed or pedestrians who jaywalk?
- Stupidly placed and enforced signals. Is this country serious about saving fuel? Then we should not have to sit for two minutes at a red light at a intersection which is completely desolate at 2am.
- Stupidly timed signals 1 - Yeah, everyone bitches anecdotally, but it’s true: you get stopped at one light and chances are you’ll get the rest of them. I’ll admit that taking a measured careful chance and speeding to beat the light has all but assured I made the greens on the rest of them. I don’t like doing it, but to save fuel and become one less vehicle clogging the road for the rest of them, I take the calculated risk. You wanna know what’s worse? No matter how blatant *I* may be, the person behind me follows through 90% of the time! What does *that* say about local respect for offending signals?
- Stupidly timed signals 2 - There is NO REASON a 2 mile commute should take THIRTY minutes, solely because one intersection has to cycle 3 times before you can make your way through it. And it’s not because there’s too much traffic – it’s because there’s too many signals in a 3-mile radius, and they all do the same damn thing!
The list goes on but I’d rant and you otherwise get the idea. Faced with all this nonsense, is it no wonder Road Rage is such a problem, and there’s such disregard for speed limits?
During Crash Week, a video was posted of traffic in Pakistan. Some scary stuff to be sure but what struck me the most was how everyone just seemed to accept it as the status quo and get on their merry way. We could almost do the same here if people would think and show caution and restraint.
But it won’t happen in this country. Because in spite of any and all caution and situational restraint, accidents do happen and humans make innocent mistakes. And innocent mistakes will always cost you dearly - Lawyers see to that.
Edited by GIC asks not for whom the bell tolls at 10/12/09 3:30 PM
GIC asks not for whom the bell tolls was starred
GIC asks not for whom the bell tolls was unstarred
I'm not sure that I would like this idea...at least from the experience standpoint. By that I mean that when I was a wee lad I lived in a God-forsaken land known as Huron County, MI, and none of the rural (dirt) roads had stop signs, yield signs and barely had road name signs. This created what I like to refer to as a "do it yourself stunt man". These mouth-breathers would run rampant on the dirt roads in that area. These people would blast down the road at no less than 50mph and wouldn't bother to slow for intersections, so if two cars were approaching one another perpendicularly, whomever was closer to the corner would generally have the right-of-way, pending they didn't both decide to kick 'er to the carpet and race to see who would get there first. Night time brought about an even more twisted driving ritual. I remember one time in particular, me and my dad were on our way to Bad Axe (the county seat of this land of knuckle-draggers). It was dark outside and I remember being in the passenger seat of our 74 Maverick doing approximately twice the "safe" speed for dirt road driving, and as we approached one of many dirt road intersections that had trees butting up to all corners, my dad kills the headlights for about three seconds and then turns them back on. Being a confused and now somewhat terrified 7 year old, I asked "what did you do that for?" My dad quickly explained that it was a "cheat" maneuver, and that if when you killed the headlights, you saw light coming from the cross-road, you would know that you would have to stop, and if you saw no light it was safe to blast through the intersection. Needless to say I was none too impressed by this and quickly responded by saying, "what if someone is thinking the same thing at the exact moment that you do...then what happens?" He answered me with nothing more than an awkward pause and a muttered "I guess I don't know".
For some reason he never did that again...at least with me in the vehicle.
Who knows, maybe the lack of signs could work in a more sophisticated society...but I wouldn't count on it.
i love the small traffic circles they installed here to slow traffic down,after making sure no pedestrians or other traffic is around they're fun to go around at 20mph*, with the front wheels squealing in protest.
*approximation because i am too scared too look at the speedo
@3.slow: The little British half-assed "roundabouts" (the raised white lumps in the center that busses and lorries drive right over) probably make great jumps.
@3.slow: Our fine city installed a few of those as an experiment in "traffic calming", and while they work pretty good when it's dry (and are huge fun in a little-bitty car,.. I always make three or four laps whenever I encounter one), they're a disaster when the snow flies. I have to make like a fifteen-point turn to get around one in a City ten-wheel snow-plow, and I've left a huge snow-berm at all the entrances/exits, so then I have to go around again and push out all the exits, each time backing on to the circle against traffic. Then, to plow the entrances, I have to go around the wrong way, but at least I'm backing onto the circle with traffic. Because of this, only the most popular routes through the circle are plowed before Midnight, and then there's stuck and abandoned cars that tried to go other ways around the circle right in the way....... Brilliant!
I think this is a great idea but towns and city would never adopt this idea, because if they couldn't put up signs telling you what to do they couldn't ticket you for not doing it.
@TheGuinnessTooth: They do in the United States and people still can't use them right...
(BTW a large portion of signs are lawsuit avoidance tools - I am a traffic engineer by degree).
To many signs is actually a distraction; and causes wrecks on it's own.
@xeensd: This is true. I was driving on an unfamiliar state highway a couple weeks ago and came to an unexpected intersection in the middle of nowhere. The highway I was on stopped in both directions for an equally-sized road with no warning (no 'stop ahead', just a stop sign that was somewhat obscured by the direction-guidance sign I was focussing on). Good thing nobody was coming, because I didn't see that stop sign.
I'm not sure the problem is too many signs, or not enough signs - I think it's just an uneven distribution of signs.
You know the joke when a guy drives through a to him yet unknown state and there is the sign saying 'Speed Limit 40'... so he slows to 40. Rolles on, another sign later saying 'Speed Limit 30'. "What the hell?" uters the guy, but slows down to 30 anyway. Slugs forward just to see after half an hour "Speed Limit 10'. Get really angry but revs back. Almost falls asleep when, after an hour 'drive' he meets the sign: 'Welcome to Speed Limit!"
I lived on a small Peninsula that had the powerlines underground and often the power would go out when the rising tide filled up the underground vaults which house the cables. All traffic lights would go out for hours. And oddly enough, all the cocks in Jags and Benzs and re'tards in giant SUV's all of the sudden had to put down the Crackberries and actually drive. Other drivers would wave each other through intersections and politely wait for a turn to go. It was surreal juxtaposed next to the aggressive and distracted habits that I usually observed.
10/13/09
It is the removal of signs and lights that give us a false sense of security. It involves close planning, promoting flow and communication between all forms of traffic. Roundabouts (by design) require you to slow down, thereby eliminating getting t-boned by someone who missed a red light.
Additionally, sitting dead still at (often entirely useless) red lights drives at least me rather batty, and leads to impatience and irritation which can cause accidents.
I have been telling people about the Drachten experiment for years, but I guess I can pipe down now.
10/13/09
10/13/09
They work very good just get some damn balls and do it.
10/12/09
Are his results culturally bound? Will the same or similar results occur in Mumbai? Rio? Los Angeles? Tokyo?
Bad science reporting irks me.
10/13/09
10/12/09
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10/12/09
Having had the pleasure of driving on German autobahns and secondary roads, I can agree with a good deal of Bedard's reasoning. Attentive drivers make driving that much better.
10/12/09
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10/12/09
The difference in my perception of time while riding a scooter, where I'm allowed to keep moving for the most part, versus a car where I'm stuck IN traffic is enormous.
Even if its not faster, its still nicer to be moving rather than crawling to stop light after stop light.
10/12/09
10/13/09
Yes, traffic circles are a communist plot. Are you retarded?
Have you ever stopped at a red light and had to wait even though there was no cross-traffic? With traffic circles you merge in and dont' ever have to stop. If that's communism... bring it on.
10/15/09
10/12/09
The last 10 years have seen a woeful disregard for basic civil and traffic engineering. I used to think it was a "Kentucky thing" but when I visit the folks in Chicago, or travel elsewhere, the list of offenses is uniform and interminable:
- Pylons installed to prevent U-turns, or installed to prevent left turns across traffic. Newsflash: if traffic is such that these maneuvers are commonplace and need to be regulated, it speaks to *poor design and planning*, NOT a need for more control devices, which only serve to compound confusion and frustration and relocate stupid maneuvers and accidents a little further up the road.
- New outdoor shopping "pavilions" and "townes" (because "malls" are obsolete) with needlessly curvy access roads that meander behind and around and practically through structures and obstructive landscaping. Because making it difficult to see where intersections, signs, and secondary access roads originate from until it’s too late is a sure-fire way to foster a pleasant shopping experience. Thanks to this crap, I shop at Amazon.
- Speedbumps every 30 yards, where a few designated crosswalks should otherwise suffice. Who's more at fault for this: drivers who speed or pedestrians who jaywalk?
- Stupidly placed and enforced signals. Is this country serious about saving fuel? Then we should not have to sit for two minutes at a red light at a intersection which is completely desolate at 2am.
- Stupidly timed signals 1 - Yeah, everyone bitches anecdotally, but it’s true: you get stopped at one light and chances are you’ll get the rest of them. I’ll admit that taking a measured careful chance and speeding to beat the light has all but assured I made the greens on the rest of them. I don’t like doing it, but to save fuel and become one less vehicle clogging the road for the rest of them, I take the calculated risk. You wanna know what’s worse? No matter how blatant *I* may be, the person behind me follows through 90% of the time! What does *that* say about local respect for offending signals?
- Stupidly timed signals 2 - There is NO REASON a 2 mile commute should take THIRTY minutes, solely because one intersection has to cycle 3 times before you can make your way through it. And it’s not because there’s too much traffic – it’s because there’s too many signals in a 3-mile radius, and they all do the same damn thing!
The list goes on but I’d rant and you otherwise get the idea. Faced with all this nonsense, is it no wonder Road Rage is such a problem, and there’s such disregard for speed limits?
During Crash Week, a video was posted of traffic in Pakistan. Some scary stuff to be sure but what struck me the most was how everyone just seemed to accept it as the status quo and get on their merry way. We could almost do the same here if people would think and show caution and restraint.
But it won’t happen in this country. Because in spite of any and all caution and situational restraint, accidents do happen and humans make innocent mistakes. And innocent mistakes will always cost you dearly - Lawyers see to that.
10/12/09
I completely agree with you.
10/12/09
For some reason he never did that again...at least with me in the vehicle.
Who knows, maybe the lack of signs could work in a more sophisticated society...but I wouldn't count on it.
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10/12/09
*approximation because i am too scared too look at the speedo
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10/13/09
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10/12/09
(BTW a large portion of signs are lawsuit avoidance tools - I am a traffic engineer by degree).
To many signs is actually a distraction; and causes wrecks on it's own.
10/12/09
I'm not sure the problem is too many signs, or not enough signs - I think it's just an uneven distribution of signs.
10/12/09
10/12/09
I for one am anxious to see how this pans out...