As a fussy bastard, I'm starting to take issue with most reviews of sports cars I ever read, and how they are drivers cars etc. etc. etc.
Yeah, they are, compared to an Infiniti or something, and I've not driven the 370z. But I have driven the 350, and;
The thing is, the limits are too damned high. There's loads of grip. Theres good weight distribution and masses of power. But unless you're really damn good (and I'm probably not) you don't really get involved other than aiming the car and pressing go.
Personally speaking, and I know I'm probably wrong here, a Drivers Car is one where you can feel the limits and know what to do when you reach them. Like an old Capri or Ford Mustang. Primitive suspension. Skinny tyres and too much power for the chassis.
That's where the fun is. Getting a "Whoa" moment at 60 and knowing how to catch it.
In this, I just know any "Whoa" moment would see me doing a Nick Hogan.
Give Nick a TR6 or a '68 Vette and maybe he'll learn something. Stick him in a Lambo with immense grip and power, and the soft tissue behind the helm starts to be a big problem.
And I think it's a totally valid criticism. Luckily, there's an affordable, practical solution. Just buy a Hyundai Genesis Coupe, it makes all the same moves as the Z, but its limits are lower so it's more fun to drive in everyday conditions and for a wider range of drivers.
@Rust-MyEnemy: Oh, how I agree with you. Friends with powerful and capable sports cars or luxosport sedans laugh at me when I tell them how much fun I had with a CRX, but they just don't understand. It was like driving a comfortable and rain-proof go-kart. Every outing was an adventure and a potential test of the car's ability. Light weight and not having scads of reserve power meant I was able to drive at 7/10 or 8/10 in conditions where the 370Z might be at 3/10. I learned all about what the limits of the CRX were. My friends will probably not get the chance to do the same in their ubercars.
@Rust-MyEnemy: I know what you mean. I love my S60R. It is a wonderfully refined daily driver and can be sporty in advanced mode. However, I am just not comfortable pushing her to the limit. Maybe on a track somewhere, but certainly not on a public road.
@Rust-MyEnemy: I agree. And I think that is a problem even with entry cars that new drivers are likely to own. A Ford Focus can probably out-handle many a 1980's sports car (that'd be a fun comparison article). So drivers just think they can go as fast as their engines will propel them and they only have to turn the wheel (like a lot of SUV drivers in the snow). Older, slower cars are way more fun because they keep you thinking about what the car is trying to do. Cars with super high limits scare me because I think I won't know I'm in over my head until I'm going much faster. I'll take 'em old and low-adhesion, thanks.
@SlowMo (actually, there's no E on my R): It's just as well our friendly 'Lopnik scribblers seem to be able to drive a bit, and the write-ups are always worth reading.
I'd love to see a few reviews of older cars, just to get a bit of context. What does a SVO Mustang feel like compared to a Genesis Coupe? That sort of thing.
@Rust-MyEnemy: I think that would be great. Like a 2L Alfa GTV vs mid-90's Sentra SE-R vs ... hmmm well, some small-ish fun 2-door sedan from today... maybe a 1-series? I always remember when Grassroots Motorsports put a Honda Odyssey minivan on an autocross course and compared it to a 365 and an E-type. It lost at first but they put some better tires on it and the minivan beat 'em both.
Edited by SlowMo (actually, there's no E on my R) at 12/01/09 9:38 AM
SlowMo (actually, there's no E on my R) was starred
SlowMo (actually, there's no E on my R) was unstarred
It's nice to know that it drives and performs well, but I just can't get over the oddball looks it is sporting, and this is coming from a guy who likes the looks of the original 350Z coupes.
Not to be morbid, but when 'ol Shelby goes to the great racetrack in the sky, what will happen to Shelby cars? I like the GT500 strictly for performance sake, I could care less about it being a collectible or worth money in the future. When you buy a car, your first priority should not be to make money down the line. I really doubt these cars will be worth so much in the future because of the name. The older cars, yes, not the newer ones.
After driving a new Camaro as a rental, I need to go look at a Mustang. Theres hardly any headroom in a Camaro. It makes me feel, well, like I am ducking my head while driving. And this is from a Corvette owner. Maybe it's because I have a clear roof in the Corvette?
Three stars for value because the $32K GT Track Pack is almost as much fun to drive? Okay, I really like that spec of the GT, too, and if it were mah own money that's the way I'd go.
But how could you ignore measuring the value of the Shelby in the other direction? Specifically, how does this $50K/540hp Shelby stack up value-wise against the $100K/620hp ZR1? Is it a three-star value in that light, too?
@Wes Siler: Fair enough, but what about against the $75K Z06, which is closer in power (505 vs 540) and also shares the less-than-wonderful interior of the lesser models? Or dollar-for-dollar, the Shelby against a base Corvette?
I'm not bringing these up because I'm trying to stoke the Chevy-Ford flame wars, but this is an honest 500hp car with better handling than any Mustang should ever have, for less than $50K. If this is three stars, what the hell does someone have to do to get four?
Regarding the non-telescoping wheel, my biggest complaint against Mustangs has always been the poor ergonomics for me. At 6'3" I have the same problem Wes described, that to get the seat positioned right I end up extending my arms to reach the steering wheel more than in other cars. And on that same note, I have to reach for the shifter rather than it being in a more natural location.
Not to ignite the whole Ford vs Chevy thing (seriously, I like Mustangs), but I never had a fitment problem in a Camaro.
@v250gto: Of course, and I've driven the car on a track too. It's faster with stability on and traction off; you can use the power and it understeers less. With everything off you just end up understeering initially, then sliding all over the place. It's not uncontrollable, but it's not fast either.
@Wes Siler: Have computer controlled driving aids improved so dramatically in recent years, or are there now more cases in which they are used to as a cheap fix for dynamic shortcomings?
@v250gto: The horsepower wars have kinda ruined cars in that we now have a plethora of vehicles that weigh 4,000lbs+ have super wide tires and wouldn't do anything but spin once the limits of that traction is broken. Hence the need for all these crazy stability control systems.
Cars are faster than ever, yet harder to drive on the limit than ever.
When they get around to re-styling the rear end, let me know.
I looked at the 2009 Outlander and it didn't really stand up to the competition in terms of capacity, capability, quality, power or comfort. And I never got a good feeling from that D-pillar. Maybe this refresh will change that, but compared to the 2010 Subaru Outback, I don't think it stands much of a chance.
11/30/09
11/30/09
-Hands free cigarette-
11/30/09
11/30/09
Yeah, they are, compared to an Infiniti or something, and I've not driven the 370z. But I have driven the 350, and;
The thing is, the limits are too damned high. There's loads of grip. Theres good weight distribution and masses of power. But unless you're really damn good (and I'm probably not) you don't really get involved other than aiming the car and pressing go.
Personally speaking, and I know I'm probably wrong here, a Drivers Car is one where you can feel the limits and know what to do when you reach them. Like an old Capri or Ford Mustang. Primitive suspension. Skinny tyres and too much power for the chassis.
That's where the fun is. Getting a "Whoa" moment at 60 and knowing how to catch it.
In this, I just know any "Whoa" moment would see me doing a Nick Hogan.
Give Nick a TR6 or a '68 Vette and maybe he'll learn something. Stick him in a Lambo with immense grip and power, and the soft tissue behind the helm starts to be a big problem.
11/30/09
[jalopnik.com]
Then in mine:
[jalopnik.com]
And I think it's a totally valid criticism. Luckily, there's an affordable, practical solution. Just buy a Hyundai Genesis Coupe, it makes all the same moves as the Z, but its limits are lower so it's more fun to drive in everyday conditions and for a wider range of drivers.
11/30/09
[jalopnik.com]
11/30/09
I just think it's a shame so many people have forgotten what driving is all about.
Keep up the good work by the way!
11/30/09
11/30/09
In fact you needed some skill to keep the damn thing pointing the right way.
11/30/09
11/30/09
Fantastic car and nice write up though.
11/30/09
12/01/09
I'd love to see a few reviews of older cars, just to get a bit of context. What does a SVO Mustang feel like compared to a Genesis Coupe? That sort of thing.
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But how could you ignore measuring the value of the Shelby in the other direction? Specifically, how does this $50K/540hp Shelby stack up value-wise against the $100K/620hp ZR1? Is it a three-star value in that light, too?
11/20/09
11/20/09
I'm not bringing these up because I'm trying to stoke the Chevy-Ford flame wars, but this is an honest 500hp car with better handling than any Mustang should ever have, for less than $50K. If this is three stars, what the hell does someone have to do to get four?
11/20/09
11/19/09
And I agree with everyone else about the awful 3rd row. I think that would be a deal killer for anyone that actually needed a 3rd row.
11/19/09
Not to ignite the whole Ford vs Chevy thing (seriously, I like Mustangs), but I never had a fitment problem in a Camaro.
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11/20/09
I am 27 in school and have done nothing for a living...something went wrong.
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11/20/09
#tips
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11/19/09
sounds perfectly sorted to me
kinda like an abs-pseudo-limited slip
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Cars are faster than ever, yet harder to drive on the limit than ever.
11/19/09
11/19/09
I looked at the 2009 Outlander and it didn't really stand up to the competition in terms of capacity, capability, quality, power or comfort. And I never got a good feeling from that D-pillar. Maybe this refresh will change that, but compared to the 2010 Subaru Outback, I don't think it stands much of a chance.