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Detroit, 7:54 AM
Sat Nov 21
32 posts in the last 24 hours

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  • posts about #safety more →

    Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of Jes St.Lawrence Jes St.Lawrence
    11/18/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    "but when you leave out an obvious weight driver the whole affair is suspect."

    I read that as "but when you leave out the obvious driver weight, the whole affair is suspect."
     Reply
    Jes St.Lawrence was starred Jes St.Lawrence was unstarred
    Image of DrLemming DrLemming
    11/18/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    I'm a live-and-let-live kind of guy. If other folks want more horsepower, they should have it if they want to pay for it. What bothers me is that today there is a much lower selection of high-mileage cars than even in the early 1990s. For example, I'd like to see a contemporary replacement for my 1991 Honda Civic wagon. It doesn't exist.

    I either have to move down market to a much smaller Fit, or up to a CRV.

    I don't want to do either. Nor is the lower gas mileage of a Matrix or Impreza very appealing despite the added safety features over my 1991 Civic. Nor do I want the added weight and complexity of a Prius.

    I also don't need all of the supposedly "must-have" bells and whistles such as power windows. Give me something light, simple and versatile with gas mileage at least in the mid-30s -- without having to switch to a hybrid.

    Please? #fueleconomy
     Reply
    DrLemming was starred DrLemming was unstarred
    Image of gunluva is prepared to drop. gunluva is prepared to drop.
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    That picture is the car the Boomer from L4D drives. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    gunluva is prepared to drop. was starred gunluva is prepared to drop. was unstarred
    Image of FTGDWolverineEdition'09 FTGDWolverineEdition'09
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates

    Sorry, I am more interested in this. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    FTGDWolverineEdition'09 was starred FTGDWolverineEdition'09 was unstarred
    Image of FTGDWolverineEdition'09 FTGDWolverineEdition'09
    11/17/09

    @FTGDWolverineEdition'09: And it still amazes me we could do this while improving FE. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    FTGDWolverineEdition'09 was starred FTGDWolverineEdition'09 was unstarred
    Image of bmoreDLJ bmoreDLJ
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates

    If it weren't for the Porsche badge, I'd say a Mustang Mach III had a terrible reaction...possibly to production greenlights. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    bmoreDLJ was starred bmoreDLJ was unstarred
    Image of Franzouse Franzouse
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    Improvements in fuel economy since 1980 were also offset by the fact that we're all getting fatter; I can't believe the authors of this study would overlook such an important factor.
    /ducks #fueleconomy
     Reply
    Franzouse was starred Franzouse was unstarred
    Image of Elhigh Elhigh
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    As much as I am disgusted by model bloat, added features, and unnecessary complexities, I have to agree: the results are horseshit.

    A brand-new vehicle with comparable interior room and luggage capacity to my dad's old Citation, bought new back in 1980, delivers both better fuel economy and a radically improved driving experience. To say that the cruise control, myriad airbags and magnitudes-different engineering that goes into the intrusion prevention door beams, traction control and brake lockup prevention don't keep the fuel economy down would be to look through the wrong end of the telescope. By that same token, to say the fuel economy would be so much better if it weren't for all that added weight, is to block the telescope before looking through it.

    Things are better than they were, all around. Certain aspects could be much, much better, yes. But that would come at the expense of the improvement in other areas. This is the whole package. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    Elhigh was starred Elhigh was unstarred
    Image of that ain't the way to have fun, son that ain't the way to have fun, son
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    Fuel economy numbers, like every other either mandated or produced-by-the-gubment, is/can be tweaked to back up whatever propaganda is desired.

    Look at the "unemployment number". Totally. Worthless. Statistic. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    that ain't the way to have fun, son was starred that ain't the way to have fun, son was unstarred
    Image of egoods egoods
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    A once (still?) great Stats teacher once told me: "Edward, there's facts, and then there's stats" #fueleconomy
     Reply
    egoods was starred egoods was unstarred
    Image of BLCKSTRM BLCKSTRM
    11/17/09

    @egoods: I believe the order is 1) Lies, 2) Damn Lies, and 3) Statistics. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    FTGDWolverineEdition'09 promoted this comment BLCKSTRM was starred BLCKSTRM was unstarred
    Image of ArtForge ArtForge
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    Reminds me of the previous article about the HPP Daytona Challenger #fueleconomy
     Reply
    ArtForge was starred ArtForge was unstarred
    Image of FЯeeMan FЯeeMan
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    but when you leave out an obvious weight driver the whole affair is suspect.

    On first reading, I though you were commenting on the weight of the driver, which has also substantially increased in the last 30 years in America. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    FЯeeMan was starred FЯeeMan was unstarred
    Image of günter macbeetle, codename: chrystlubitshi günter macbeetle, codename: chrystlubitshi
    11/17/09

    @FЯeeMan: you get a heart clicky from my "50-lb-heavier-over-the-last-10-years" self

    i do consider driver & passenger weight to be a consideration in total vehicle weight/mileage issues... #fueleconomy
     Reply
    günter macbeetle, codename: chrystlubitshi was starred günter macbeetle, codename: chrystlubitshi was unstarred
    Image of Alfisted Alfisted
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    I've read the report. He's used a lot of extra words to make the document understandable and to make himself sound more intelligent. Had he stripped those out and written for a 6th grade audience, he could have saved a lot of paper. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    Alfisted was starred Alfisted was unstarred
    Image of mr_dude mr_dude
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    Blaming safety mandates is irrelevant if manufacturers never attempted significant efficiency improvements in the first place.

    It's like saying the teacher graded too harshly on a homework assignment you didn't do. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    mr_dude was starred mr_dude was unstarred
    Image of 32ndnote 32ndnote
    11/17/09

    @mr_dude: That analogy is now on top of my list of awesomeness. Thank you. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    32ndnote was starred 32ndnote was unstarred
    Image of GV_Goat GV_Goat
    11/17/09

    @mr_dude: That weight AND power have increased (on average) and there is still a net improvement of 15% tells me they have attempted (and achieved) efficiency improvements.

    The fact that a relative comparison would yield a 50% improvement shows how much progress they have made.

    Should it be 100%? Or a 1000? What number would mean they did the homework assignment?

    Sorry if I've mis-understood your analogy but it seems to me they've done their homework, met the teachers requirements while also satisfying the market demand (if the market demanded better economy, you can bet your ass we'd have it).
     Reply
    mr_dude promoted this comment Edited by GV_Goat at 11/17/09 10:28 AM GV_Goat was starred GV_Goat was unstarred
    Image of beercheck beercheck
    11/17/09

    @mr_dude: Except that MPG sells more cars than HP. Maybe not to enthusiasts, but enthusiasts are a small fraction of car buyers.

    The MPG interests of consumers have been met. When consumers want more MPG, the manufacturers will/do focus more on efficiency. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    beercheck was starred beercheck was unstarred
    Image of mr_dude mr_dude
    11/17/09

    @GV_Goat: Yes indeedy, deciding on a metric is the hardest part. My analogy is based on the supposition that 30 years of development would yield a 15% efficiency gain without a concerted effort.

    It's all grey area, since *some* effort was dedicated to mpg and it's very tough to qualify. Ostensibly, efficiency has been a low priority until recently.

    @beercheck: The key word being 'sells' rather than 'sold'. It's impossible to make up 30 years of r&d opportunity in the few short years since gas was $5.00 and Toyota rose on a platform of efficiency and reliability.

    Saying 'the mpg interests of consumers have been met' is cyclical. Our perception is based on our reality, defined by what is available to us. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    mr_dude was starred mr_dude was unstarred
    Image of Brimful of Ash on the 78 Brimful of Ash on the 78
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    Completely ignores safety and comfort (weight gains), which are probably a bigger driver of engine power than consumers simply screaming "moar powah!"

    However, for a long time I've been wondering what would have happened if engineers spent more time on efficiency before power. Honda can squeeze 255hp(?) out of the Accord V6 and still give it high-20s on the highway. But could they also have managed 35mpg on 200hp? Probably not, but it's worth considering those tradeoffs.

    My back-of-envelope crunching shows a lot of examples where power can be increased substantially with a very small hit in economy, so that power/efficiency frontier isn't exactly linear. It favors power. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    Brimful of Ash on the 78 was starred Brimful of Ash on the 78 was unstarred
    Image of DaddyRocket DaddyRocket
    11/17/09

    @Amalgamated Stainless Headers, est.1978: F Honda. Let's take a look at the Corvette, shall we? over 30 MPG highway in my 2002 Z06 (~30 with AC on, over 32 without), and I have 405 HP and 400 Lbs.Ft. Pushrod V8 FTW. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    Amalgamated Stainless Headers, est.1978 promoted this comment DaddyRocket was starred DaddyRocket was unstarred
    Image of Brimful of Ash on the 78 Brimful of Ash on the 78
    11/17/09

    @DaddyRocket: Yep, also very impressive (though it's a little skewed because of the tall gearing, but I'm also a fan of low-rev, high displacement engines) #fueleconomy
     Reply
    Brimful of Ash on the 78 was starred Brimful of Ash on the 78 was unstarred
    Image of theart theart
    11/17/09

    @Amalgamated Stainless Headers, est.1978: It's been done.
    [jalopnik.com]
    At highway speeds, aerodynamics are far more important than weight. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    theart was starred theart was unstarred
    Image of beercheck beercheck
    11/17/09

    @Amalgamated Stainless Headers, est.1978: Oh, please. Nothing's "skewed because of the gearing". #fueleconomy
     Reply
    beercheck was starred beercheck was unstarred
    Image of Brimful of Ash on the 78 Brimful of Ash on the 78
    11/17/09

    @beercheck: "Skewed" meaning a top gear that's unusually high in relation to the rest. It's not cheating, it's just a nice trick you can do with a big engine. ie, not very applicable to most engines that have to provide efficiency in blended driving. The vette in the city is pretty thirsty. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    Brimful of Ash on the 78 was starred Brimful of Ash on the 78 was unstarred
    Image of DaddyRocket DaddyRocket
    11/17/09

    @theart: low CD FTW? #fueleconomy
     Reply
    brandegee promoted this comment DaddyRocket was starred DaddyRocket was unstarred
    Image of brandegee brandegee
    11/17/09

    @DaddyRocket: CD, gearing, and low-end torque. As nice as that combo is, it can't ignore certain thermodynamic realities. You either have to have a light foot or a lean burn...and neither sound like much fun. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    brandegee was starred brandegee was unstarred
    Image of DaddyRocket DaddyRocket
    11/17/09

    @brandegee: Or warp drive. That's one way around those pesky thermodynamic barriers... #fueleconomy
     Reply
    DaddyRocket was starred DaddyRocket was unstarred
    Image of Amber Jonson Amber Jonson
    10/27/09

    In reply to Make Your Own Animatronic Screaming Skull Brake Lights With Junkyard Parts!
    That's too cool... I want one. Are you taking order?? ;-) #halloween
     Reply
    Murilee Martin promoted this comment Amber Jonson was starred Amber Jonson was unstarred
    Image of Murilee Martin Murilee Martin
    10/27/09

    @Amber Jonson: Everything is for sale! #halloween
     Reply
    Murilee Martin was starred Murilee Martin was unstarred
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