Fine, as long as I don't have to pay for it. If they can find places to put them where they'll actually be used enough to offset their cost, build them.
Since private industry hasn't done that yet, in spite of the technology having been available for decades, I don't think there is a strong business case for them.
Another advantage of HSR is that if you’re a terrorist or an anarchist, you can cause major carnage with very little investment. A simple cow on the tracks would be devastating.
@Flathead Smith: using that as an arguement against high speed rail (in a sarcastic tone) is akin to saying we shouldn't be allowed to live and work in tall buildings, because they are far more efficient at allowing lots of people to die when the terrorists blow them up. #rants
But commuter rail leads to functioning high speed rail. It all has to work together, or else you might as well not do it.
Also, check out the Swedish X2000 train. It has a suspension which leans it in turns, making special tracks unnecessary. Good for those countries who only want to dip a toe into HSR.
@Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est: Like the Northeast corridor, where the Acela uses just such a system. Unfortunately, you still need jointless track to attain high speeds (from what I understand). #rants
@drewdrawshashtags: Yes. You also need tracks far enough apart so when the trains tilt, they don't hit each other. Part of the reason the Acela doesn't go as fast here as it does in France is they had to restrict the speed due to the tracks being too close together to take advantage of the full tilting feature.
Makes you glad they figured that out _before_ they started running them, eh? #rants
@mechimike: They actually didn't. I worked for Amtrak's insurer at the time they were testing and one of the reasons for the many delays was that the trains were hitting things when they tilted. Luckily, no severe accidents, but I think some poles were taken out. #rants
Having had the pleasure of riding the Shinkansen in Japan, I'd hop aboard a high speed train at the drop of the proverbial hat. For small land mass countries like Japan, it's a god-send. I spent 2.5 months in Japan on '07, mostly in a small-ish town outside of Nagoya. The Shinkansen got me to Tokyo in 2 hours, and Kobe in about the same. Fuji Speedway was another destination served almost completely by train (and a highly entertaining cab ride through the country side). No one does rail like the Japanese. The first time you're at a Shinkansen station waiting for your train, and an express blows through at a good 150mph is seriously awesome. Fun fact: the Japanese rail system averages schedule deviations and variances in seconds.
States such as California could surely benefit from such a system. It's got a large population across a very serviceable area. Unfortunately, there's no way in hell the state could ever pay for it (I'll spare you all any diatribe aimed at our crew in Sacramento).
Edited by evoCS-Hench-Minion to the stars at 11/14/09 1:08 AM
evoCS-Hench-Minion to the stars was starred
evoCS-Hench-Minion to the stars was unstarred
@evoCS-Hench-Minion to the stars: To be fair... The Japanese put the first Shinkansen in service (running 125 MPH) 5 years before we put a man on the moon. They've been at this a while. #rants
Well ranted. I still think some of the $700 billion should have been spent on infrastructure, rather than shoring up bankers' bonuses. Two coastal rail networks and maybe one spanning the continent would truly be grand. #rants
@Mobius: We used to have this sort of thing. The argument everyone seems to miss is that once upon a time, Americans had a rail system that was the envy of the world. #rants
I heart the German ICE trains. I got to take a ride on one last month, and it was about the most sublime experience you can possibly have on wheels. Berlin to Stuttgart in about two and a half hours with about six stops in-between. $70 a first class ticket where you actually feel like you're traveling first class. You're not going to get there this fast or this well in your BMW 7-series or your Benz E-class. Not in Germany, and certainly not in the USA.
That having been said, the difference between Europe and North America is that once you get off this state-of-the-art high-speed train, you have regional and local subways and surface streetcars and buses going wherever you might want to go in the destination city.
In the USA, unless you've rented a car (or have your own car in a nearby parking lot), you are stranded in place. These systems have been in continuous development in every German city worth mentioning (taking a break, perhaps, for World War Two) since Kaiser Wilhelm's regime. We destroyed ours. Utterly. Unless you happen to be standing in a handful of cities on the East Coast, the only way you're going to get anywhere is by automobile.
We will have to re-develop our local public transportation systems before we can even think about building a high-speed rail network. Without the former, you will not be able to expand ridership for the latter to even the subset of Americans who use commuter airlines.
@HurtsSoGood: I agree. I live in DC and I can get practically anywhere by Metro, even out into the suburbs. I almost never take busses -- this is all trains.
I love cars, but this kind of public transit means I can buy something completely impractical to drive for fun and forget about a "daily driver" that is practical. #rants
Trains are romantic, they are elegant, they are things of beauty. In the 1930s and 40s, rail travel practically became the mascot for the U.S. They put the flashiest Cadillac to shame. While not on par with the ocean liners of the 1910s and 20s, they were close enough.
Just thing. Trains could give the American population as a whole, something to be proud of! Something that hasn't really happened with cars of late, or cruise ships, or airplanes. #rants
@Ford Tempo Fanatic: With the exception of you airplanes comment, I completely agree with you.
We have always had aircraft to be proud of, and the latest Boeing 787 Dreamliner is no exception.
We do need to bring back other things that we, as a nation, can be proud of again, and I think that an advanced rail system and a renewed ship building program could be just the thing. While the original SS United States still exists, and is rumored to be the target of a major renovation in the near future, I would like to see more things like that.
With the latest round of cars put out by GM and Ford, I think that we are at last on the right path with cars again, though. #rants
@pauljones: And I agree. We are on the right track with cars, and the Corvette ZR-1 and Cadillac CTS-V are certainly world class vehicles. But the damage has been done, and its going to be a long time before cars and America go together as well as they did in the 1950s, 1960s.
We've got the upcoming 787 Dreamliner sure, but is that enough? We need something that will look good on billboards, something that will be a household name. Something only America has. There is definite potential both on the rails and at sea for America to achieve something great.
Back in the 30s, 40s, you had kids playing with Lionel models of trains like the Pennsylvania Railroad GG1 electrics, or the New York Central Hudsons. World famous designers like Loewy and Henry Dreyfus were being contracted to work for specific railways like the PRR and the New York Central. #rants
As you point out, much of the appeal of rail travel once upon a time was the glamor of it. And I think that before we can get people to agree on building a national HSR system, it might help if we kind of manipulated them into wanting one. If we were to renovate the current tracks, and recreate may of the old, elegant, art deco engines of yore with modern propulsion advantages, and made it a full luxury experience, we might just be able to put that glamor back in rail travel, and then we can worry about building an entirely new and more efficient system, when we have the actual support for it.
I think we should do the same for sea travel. Nowadays, sea travel consists of going on round-trip cruises. But it used to be that sea travel consisted of actual, point A-to-point b traveling for people who had the luxuries of time and money, and wanted to enjoy a luxurious, pampered experience. We need to do that again. There's nothing that says it absolutely has to be competitive in price with transatlantic flights. It just has to be infinitely more pleasant and desirable in order to justify the price.
If we can get it to the point that kids want things like that to play with again, we might stand a chance. But getting there is the hard part. #rants
@pauljones: Indeed. And with the sole exception of the 787 for air travel, there seems to be absolutely no effort whatsoever. So, the sad truth is that sea and rail travel are probably going to be neglected for quite some time. #rants
@Ford Tempo Fanatic: 787? Really? I've always loved the original 787 (aka Sonic Cruise) but the one they are actually producing is so watered down that it merely is a slightly more stylish version of every other current airliner out there. Tell me one feature which is actually "game changing?"
Yes, it has a great new composite body and some other differentiators but so what? There is nothing really exciting about it. It definitely is no Concord for sure. Not even a Super-Caravelle.
@FTGDWolverineEdition'09: Have you seen the interior? Have you flown on the other planes in use by airlines these days? Has there been any improvements, no matter how small, to airliners in the past two, three decades? #rants
@Ford Tempo Fanatic: How different will that interior be from an economy class passenger perspective? Much better than the one being offered these days? Even more than the A380? If so, I will happily welcome it. #rants
High-speed ground transport should be done not with rail, but with magnetic levitation.
First case should be So-Cal to Lost Wages. The I-15 corridor is barren, yet heavily traveled. Good experimental area, 'cause the worst that can happen is people are late to the tables.... #rants
I did the math, once. Figure half an hour to go through security and preboard - that's a high estimate, since I'm in a relatively low-density travel area. Another half-hour to go through the car rental process where I'm going, once I've waited fifteen minutes to fetch my bags from the carousel. And about two hours in flight since the places I fly to are never far enough apart that they put me on something fast. I'm up to about three hours getting from my place to my folks' city, and I still have to contend with DC traffic once I'm there.
An Amtrak Acela averages around 125-150mph depending on how straight and well-maintained the track, which gets me to Mom and Dad in about four hours, and drops me off a helluva lot closer than Dulles. And at no point is there a risk of falling out of the sky which I know is highly irrational but a concern of mine nonetheless.
I've flown several times, rarely enough that each flight is an event. I completely understand the physics behind flight and that the systems involved are highly reliable.
I don't care. Wheels continue to hold you up even if the engine stops. The power of one 757 engine is sufficient to drive a gigantic train at Ludicrous Speed, while moving the same number of people as the 757. That's a pretty good improvement in fuel economy, there.
The one downside: the fare structure is insane. Every time I've flown, I checked rail fares first. It's always cheaper to fly. Fix that, and I'll never fly again. #rants
America needs a proper rail infrastructure connecting major metropolitan areas with their respective suburbs. Take care of that, then we can start considering high speed rail. What's the point of high speed rail if people have to drive to these stations, in some cases forced to go out of their way to get there.
Mind you, I think high speed trains are awesome; I had the opportunity to ride the Shinkansen once and it was amazing. Nevertheless, these high speed rail lines are an extravagant waste of money so that politicians can pretend they're doing something constructive. The way American contractors, with the help of union labor, gets things done, expect these projects to take twice and long and cost 5 times as much by the time all is said and done. If Amtrak has any say in this the trains will always run late.
And the best part will be that it's will likely still be cheaper to fly. Japan's high speed rail lines have seen declines in ridership because flying has been so relatively inexpensive and quicker. So there's a lot to think about, but as usual, politicians don't give anything much thought. #rants
@MaWeiTao: Again, I completely agree—the irony here is that Schwarzenegger's move (see the link) robbed L.A. and San Diego of the opportunity for much-needed commute-rail improvement funds. One has to come before the other, and light rail has enough of a problem in this country as is. It's idiotic.
(As for me, the post's intro text was more hyperbole than anything else.) #rants
@MaWeiTao: "What's the point of high speed rail if people have to drive to these stations, in some cases forced to go out of their way to get there."
You have to drive to an airport. Any airport. In fact, usually you have to drive far. So driving to a train station probably isn't any different. High speed rail could be a solution to both our lack of transcontinental rail transit, and our shitty urban rail system.
Just think. Right now, as far as the economy and the transportation industry goes, the only way to go is up. All it takes is an influential political leader, a modern version of Raymond Loewy, and a rich ass rail tycoon with a dream. We could have a beautiful, efficient high speed/transcontinental rail system. It would at least draw attention to the rail industry. It could do for trains what the Union Pacific M-10000 did for passenger rail service in the mid-30s. All it takes is one. #rants
I rode the TGV once as a kid and it was fantastic. Amtrak is far below in every way (train quality, ride comfort, etc.). However, there's something AWESOME about getting on a sleeper car in Chicago with a Zero Halliburton case full of booze and drain it over the next 2 days on your way out to Montana or beyond.
Oh, and train trips are much more relaxing than flying or driving. #rants
I also think this plan fails to take into account the limited speed capabilities of our hobos, drifters, rail-riders and graffiti artistes. How in the world is Boxcar Willie going to jump one of these monsters? When will it be standing still long enough to get tagged? #rants
I've ridden the Skinkansen in Japan from Tokyo to Osaka. Leave it to the Japanese to whisk you along at 4 miles a minute and make it feel utterly safe, unobtrusive, and even clinical. It's brilliant. #rants
I'd love to see HSR in the US. Theoretically, it'd be a near-straight shot for a fast rail line to go from VA Beach clear to Memphis or Little Rock, for example, with lots of stretches of sparsely populated country to fly through. But I'd be shocked if I see it in my lifetime. #rants
11/15/09
Since private industry hasn't done that yet, in spite of the technology having been available for decades, I don't think there is a strong business case for them.
Yet anyway. #rants
11/14/09
11/14/09
11/14/09
11/15/09
11/14/09
Also, check out the Swedish X2000 train. It has a suspension which leans it in turns, making special tracks unnecessary. Good for those countries who only want to dip a toe into HSR.
[en.wikipedia.org] #rants
11/14/09
11/14/09
Makes you glad they figured that out _before_ they started running them, eh? #rants
11/15/09
11/16/09
Hearties for both of you for expanding my knowledge. #rants
11/14/09
States such as California could surely benefit from such a system. It's got a large population across a very serviceable area. Unfortunately, there's no way in hell the state could ever pay for it (I'll spare you all any diatribe aimed at our crew in Sacramento).
11/14/09
11/14/09
11/13/09
11/14/09
11/14/09
11/13/09
That having been said, the difference between Europe and North America is that once you get off this state-of-the-art high-speed train, you have regional and local subways and surface streetcars and buses going wherever you might want to go in the destination city.
In the USA, unless you've rented a car (or have your own car in a nearby parking lot), you are stranded in place. These systems have been in continuous development in every German city worth mentioning (taking a break, perhaps, for World War Two) since Kaiser Wilhelm's regime. We destroyed ours. Utterly. Unless you happen to be standing in a handful of cities on the East Coast, the only way you're going to get anywhere is by automobile.
We will have to re-develop our local public transportation systems before we can even think about building a high-speed rail network. Without the former, you will not be able to expand ridership for the latter to even the subset of Americans who use commuter airlines.
11/14/09
I love cars, but this kind of public transit means I can buy something completely impractical to drive for fun and forget about a "daily driver" that is practical. #rants
11/13/09
Trains are romantic, they are elegant, they are things of beauty. In the 1930s and 40s, rail travel practically became the mascot for the U.S. They put the flashiest Cadillac to shame. While not on par with the ocean liners of the 1910s and 20s, they were close enough.
Just thing. Trains could give the American population as a whole, something to be proud of! Something that hasn't really happened with cars of late, or cruise ships, or airplanes. #rants
11/13/09
We have always had aircraft to be proud of, and the latest Boeing 787 Dreamliner is no exception.
We do need to bring back other things that we, as a nation, can be proud of again, and I think that an advanced rail system and a renewed ship building program could be just the thing. While the original SS United States still exists, and is rumored to be the target of a major renovation in the near future, I would like to see more things like that.
With the latest round of cars put out by GM and Ford, I think that we are at last on the right path with cars again, though. #rants
11/13/09
We've got the upcoming 787 Dreamliner sure, but is that enough? We need something that will look good on billboards, something that will be a household name. Something only America has. There is definite potential both on the rails and at sea for America to achieve something great.
Back in the 30s, 40s, you had kids playing with Lionel models of trains like the Pennsylvania Railroad GG1 electrics, or the New York Central Hudsons. World famous designers like Loewy and Henry Dreyfus were being contracted to work for specific railways like the PRR and the New York Central. #rants
11/13/09
As you point out, much of the appeal of rail travel once upon a time was the glamor of it. And I think that before we can get people to agree on building a national HSR system, it might help if we kind of manipulated them into wanting one. If we were to renovate the current tracks, and recreate may of the old, elegant, art deco engines of yore with modern propulsion advantages, and made it a full luxury experience, we might just be able to put that glamor back in rail travel, and then we can worry about building an entirely new and more efficient system, when we have the actual support for it.
I think we should do the same for sea travel. Nowadays, sea travel consists of going on round-trip cruises. But it used to be that sea travel consisted of actual, point A-to-point b traveling for people who had the luxuries of time and money, and wanted to enjoy a luxurious, pampered experience. We need to do that again. There's nothing that says it absolutely has to be competitive in price with transatlantic flights. It just has to be infinitely more pleasant and desirable in order to justify the price.
If we can get it to the point that kids want things like that to play with again, we might stand a chance. But getting there is the hard part. #rants
11/13/09
11/14/09
Yes, it has a great new composite body and some other differentiators but so what? There is nothing really exciting about it. It definitely is no Concord for sure. Not even a Super-Caravelle.
p.s: I love planes. #rants
11/14/09
11/15/09
11/13/09
11/16/09
@FrankGrimes: The japanese already one-upped us on that. Not only is it rocket engines instead of jets, but it also turns into a gian robot! #rants
11/13/09
First case should be So-Cal to Lost Wages. The I-15 corridor is barren, yet heavily traveled. Good experimental area, 'cause the worst that can happen is people are late to the tables.... #rants
11/13/09
An Amtrak Acela averages around 125-150mph depending on how straight and well-maintained the track, which gets me to Mom and Dad in about four hours, and drops me off a helluva lot closer than Dulles. And at no point is there a risk of falling out of the sky which I know is highly irrational but a concern of mine nonetheless.
I've flown several times, rarely enough that each flight is an event. I completely understand the physics behind flight and that the systems involved are highly reliable.
I don't care. Wheels continue to hold you up even if the engine stops. The power of one 757 engine is sufficient to drive a gigantic train at Ludicrous Speed, while moving the same number of people as the 757. That's a pretty good improvement in fuel economy, there.
The one downside: the fare structure is insane. Every time I've flown, I checked rail fares first. It's always cheaper to fly. Fix that, and I'll never fly again. #rants
11/13/09
Mind you, I think high speed trains are awesome; I had the opportunity to ride the Shinkansen once and it was amazing. Nevertheless, these high speed rail lines are an extravagant waste of money so that politicians can pretend they're doing something constructive. The way American contractors, with the help of union labor, gets things done, expect these projects to take twice and long and cost 5 times as much by the time all is said and done. If Amtrak has any say in this the trains will always run late.
And the best part will be that it's will likely still be cheaper to fly. Japan's high speed rail lines have seen declines in ridership because flying has been so relatively inexpensive and quicker. So there's a lot to think about, but as usual, politicians don't give anything much thought. #rants
11/13/09
(As for me, the post's intro text was more hyperbole than anything else.) #rants
11/13/09
You have to drive to an airport. Any airport. In fact, usually you have to drive far. So driving to a train station probably isn't any different. High speed rail could be a solution to both our lack of transcontinental rail transit, and our shitty urban rail system.
Just think. Right now, as far as the economy and the transportation industry goes, the only way to go is up. All it takes is an influential political leader, a modern version of Raymond Loewy, and a rich ass rail tycoon with a dream. We could have a beautiful, efficient high speed/transcontinental rail system. It would at least draw attention to the rail industry. It could do for trains what the Union Pacific M-10000 did for passenger rail service in the mid-30s. All it takes is one. #rants
11/13/09
Oh, and train trips are much more relaxing than flying or driving. #rants
11/13/09
11/13/09
11/13/09