I think the only reason GM's able to start paying back the loans so quickly is simply they borrowed more than they needed to. Probably so they could start paying it back sooner, as a PR move. Like you said, GM's PR department isn't stupid, but they think the rest of us are.
@HurtsSoGood: They needed money AND they were blowing smoke up our asses.
Kind of like when you couldn't make rent right after you finished college, and scared your parents into lending you $1,500. But you didn't tell them that you spent $400 of this on concert tickets and beer, and when you paid them back $200 early it was just so that they'd forget about the remainder.
Edited by Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est at 11/19/09 11:08 PM
Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est was starred
Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est was unstarred
Incorrect. The cars are commodities, of which none are sold for less than the price of materials, therefore any monetary loss is associated with labor, manufacturing overhead, and administrative cost.
Let's assume that the profit on the materials can outpace the facility overhead cost, and break it down to where all losses are associated with personnel, both labor and administration.
Let us furthermore assume that the taxpayer funded loan was a gift, and that none of it will come back.
Then, let us assume that the funds remained within North America.
With approximately 112,000 employees in North America, 8.6 billion dollars works out to $76,785 per worker that the taxpayers have spent.
Fire them all, and give me back my money. All $30 of it ($8.6 billion divided by the current US population of 300 million is only $28.67; The $1.33 is interest)
skitter promoted this comment
Corvette_Thunder_Wheres my trophy for participating in Jalopnik? was starred
Corvette_Thunder_Wheres my trophy for participating in Jalopnik? was unstarred
Quick. Everyone buy an Aveo just to spite the taxbuyer. "Look at this! Look at it! Yeah, that's right! This pile of misery cost you 12 Grover Clevelands!"
Why the hell can't we outsource these morons? I want to see these studies coming from Indochina pronto. In mangled English of course. Like the old motherboard manuals back in the day.
@mytdawg: About the Author
Thomas D. Hopkins is Professor of Economics at Rochester Institute of Technology. He served as Dean of the College of Business 1998-2005 and as President, U.S. Business School in Prague, Czech Republic, an RIT MBA program where he taught 1992-98. He was the Arthur J. Gosnell Professor of Economics in RIT's College of Liberal Arts, 1988-98. Hopkins held senior management positions in two White House agencies during the Ford, Carter and Reagan Administrations; in 1979 President Carter appointed him a charter member of the federal government's Senior Executive Service. In the early 1980s, he served as Deputy Administrator, Office of Information & Regulatory Affairs, in the Office of Management & Budget. His research on business burdens of government regulation has been sponsored by the Organization for Economic Cooperation & Development (OECD) in Paris and the U.S. Small Business Administration (SBA) in Washington. He has testified on regulatory policy issues before committees of the U.S. Senate and House, and Canada's House of Commons. He co-authored a 2001 SBA report, "The Impact of Regulatory Costs on Small Firms," as well as National Research Council reports on marine transportation, the Exxon Valdez oil spill, and trucking/rail/barge transportation. He previously was on the faculty of American University, University of Maryland, and Bowdoin College.
@don_mynack: Great. Get him to do a study on what the wars have cost us and how much was wasted and how much that has cost every taxpayer. Or the collapse of the financial institutions. Or Enron. Or all the others that have pilfered their way through the last decade at taxpayer expense. Or how much Halliburton has stolen from taxpayers. Spread that hate around a little.
This is another way of creating demand where no such demand exists. Let's have a look at how we got into this mess in the first place.
Right after the disaster on Sept 11, 2001, the nation took a body blow to it's national pride, but did we all come together, to tighten our belts, stay focused, and go after the real enemies of the country? NO, we were all asked to go shopping.
And so the first 0% financing scheme was hatched, and this brought droves of shoppers into the showrooms. We were already heading for some sort of a recession back in 2000, and 0.9% financing was available, but this scheme was like no other, pulling forward the buying cycle of many consumers.
When 0% financing started to fade, the large cash rebates were tried on the buying public, and they responded in a big way in 2003, pulling in further the normal buying cycle of those consumers. On top of huge cash promotions, there was a little known tax write off for trucks (and SUV's) purchased by businesses, in which they could write off 100% of the purchase toward their taxes. Land Rover produced a spiffy pamphlet showing how to take advantage of the tax loophole, even going so far as how to create your own LLC or LLP.
This too was starting to sow, so Voila, Employee Pricing was tried during the summer 2005 selling season, and once again, it pulled in buyers pre-maturely so that they can get "the deal". GM Started it, with Ford and Chrysler following, and they wiped out all of the 2005 inventory.
So what worked in the past isn't working now, and the big reason is that everyone who could but a car, has a reasonably new car now, and with the double whammy of last summers high fuel prices, and no credit, we are at a more reasonable 8 or 9 million vehicle production level, not an artificial 15 to 17 million level.
Now we have this bill, and quite frankly, it creates an artificial demand (again). I say let sleeping dogs lie, and it will work out (in about 3 years). We are just postponing the inevitable.
Does anyone know what's going on with the proposed voucher for motorcycles? Maybe they could have a voucher of, say, $10,000 for new vehicles with 20+mpg improvement. F*ck a Prius, I want a new Harley.
@Muscles Marinara: I happen to agree. I'd rather have more motorcycles on the road than more Prii - cyclists aren't usually (with the exception of some crotch-rocket pilots and occasional weekend H-D types) utter dipshits; they can park three or four to a space, no problem, depending on orientation of said space; they get equivalent (sometimes better) fuel economy, and they can't sneak up on pedestrians and run 'em over.
Also, I yield to motorcycles. Another advantage for you.
Does anyone know how the government will go about deciding which cars get 18 MPG and under and which do not? What if your car did 20 MPG say ten years ago and now it gets 15 MPG?
@Saboth: Yes, that is my understanding as well. If you have an older car, they have a magic formula that takes its mileage when new that used the old EPA tests and gives the mileage under the current test procedures.
In other word they could have just said: we will give back $4000 to the first 250'0000 people willing to trade in that show up at a dealership, starting now and it would have been just as random.
While I'm still not exactly opposed to this, I am opposed to the fact that it was wedged in, pork-style, to an unrelated bill. Seriously, any senator or representative who does that sort of thing, on either side of the aisle, should be led behind the barn and shot.
I view this bill like I view my "tax free" spending days in Georgia. Fools RUSH to the stores to save pennies and spend money on shit they don't need for the most part. I suspect this bill will cause a similiar rush, though prolly not on the same magnitude. A rational person would sell their clunker for whatever it gets and then go purchase a used car with cash that they can afford.
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
Kind of like when you couldn't make rent right after you finished college, and scared your parents into lending you $1,500. But you didn't tell them that you spent $400 of this on concert tickets and beer, and when you paid them back $200 early it was just so that they'd forget about the remainder.
11/20/09
#tips
11/19/09
11/19/09
Let's assume that the profit on the materials can outpace the facility overhead cost, and break it down to where all losses are associated with personnel, both labor and administration.
Let us furthermore assume that the taxpayer funded loan was a gift, and that none of it will come back.
Then, let us assume that the funds remained within North America.
With approximately 112,000 employees in North America, 8.6 billion dollars works out to $76,785 per worker that the taxpayers have spent.
Fire them all, and give me back my money. All $30 of it ($8.6 billion divided by the current US population of 300 million is only $28.67; The $1.33 is interest)
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
Also, faring, not fairing.
/grammarian
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
Hopefully, GM will learn the lesson and not stagnate. Next time, the taxpayers won't be so willing to hand over billions on a silver platter.
But then again, this isn't exactly the first time, either. Do we, as a species, ever learn?
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
I quit building when it became more expensive to build one than to just buy a workstation off eBay.
11/19/09
Thomas D. Hopkins is Professor of Economics at Rochester Institute of Technology. He served as Dean of the College of Business 1998-2005 and as President, U.S. Business School in Prague, Czech Republic, an RIT MBA program where he taught 1992-98. He was the Arthur J. Gosnell Professor of Economics in RIT's College of Liberal Arts, 1988-98. Hopkins held senior management positions in two White House agencies during the Ford, Carter and Reagan Administrations; in 1979 President Carter appointed him a charter member of the federal government's Senior Executive Service. In the early 1980s, he served as Deputy Administrator, Office of Information & Regulatory Affairs, in the Office of Management & Budget. His research on business burdens of government regulation has been sponsored by the Organization for Economic Cooperation & Development (OECD) in Paris and the U.S. Small Business Administration (SBA) in Washington. He has testified on regulatory policy issues before committees of the U.S. Senate and House, and Canada's House of Commons. He co-authored a 2001 SBA report, "The Impact of Regulatory Costs on Small Firms," as well as National Research Council reports on marine transportation, the Exxon Valdez oil spill, and trucking/rail/barge transportation. He previously was on the faculty of American University, University of Maryland, and Bowdoin College.
Yeah, sounds like a total moron.
11/19/09
06/19/09
Right after the disaster on Sept 11, 2001, the nation took a body blow to it's national pride, but did we all come together, to tighten our belts, stay focused, and go after the real enemies of the country? NO, we were all asked to go shopping.
And so the first 0% financing scheme was hatched, and this brought droves of shoppers into the showrooms. We were already heading for some sort of a recession back in 2000, and 0.9% financing was available, but this scheme was like no other, pulling forward the buying cycle of many consumers.
When 0% financing started to fade, the large cash rebates were tried on the buying public, and they responded in a big way in 2003, pulling in further the normal buying cycle of those consumers. On top of huge cash promotions, there was a little known tax write off for trucks (and SUV's) purchased by businesses, in which they could write off 100% of the purchase toward their taxes. Land Rover produced a spiffy pamphlet showing how to take advantage of the tax loophole, even going so far as how to create your own LLC or LLP.
This too was starting to sow, so Voila, Employee Pricing was tried during the summer 2005 selling season, and once again, it pulled in buyers pre-maturely so that they can get "the deal". GM Started it, with Ford and Chrysler following, and they wiped out all of the 2005 inventory.
So what worked in the past isn't working now, and the big reason is that everyone who could but a car, has a reasonably new car now, and with the double whammy of last summers high fuel prices, and no credit, we are at a more reasonable 8 or 9 million vehicle production level, not an artificial 15 to 17 million level.
Now we have this bill, and quite frankly, it creates an artificial demand (again). I say let sleeping dogs lie, and it will work out (in about 3 years). We are just postponing the inevitable.
06/19/09
06/19/09
Also, I yield to motorcycles. Another advantage for you.
06/19/09
06/19/09
There is an official gov site that lists EPA gas mileage. I'd assume they are using the new EPA estimates.
[www.fueleconomy.gov]
06/19/09
In other word they could have just said: we will give back $4000 to the first 250'0000 people willing to trade in that show up at a dealership, starting now and it would have been just as random.
06/19/09
06/19/09
06/19/09