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Talking Pontiac's Post G8 ST Future With GM VP of Marketing Susan Docherty

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bzr
01/07/09

In reply to Talking Pontiac's Post G8 ST Future With GM VP of Marketing Susan Docherty
You know...GM had the opportunity to recreate a new segment here that's been left untapped for 30 years, and give us a car that would merge niches more effectively than yet another effing crossover.

What if there were people who needed lots of room to carry big, messy stuff (like, say, old Japanese motorcycles) but don't need massive hill-humping capability? Imagine that?

The G8 ST would have worked out a lot better than the Envoy XUV, which was designed solely for the purpose of transporting snowmen. In theory.

And also, I suppose the whole thing about the naming contest was a load of smoke and mirrors?
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Jordan Denhoed
01/07/09

In reply to Talking Pontiac's Post G8 ST Future With GM VP of Marketing Susan Docherty
What is to be the Pontiac Division's engineering direction? Taking a car design from GM partner Holden is great but Pontiac is more than a just rebadging company and has too much history to squander on selling another company's (admittedly great) vehicles. To compete with BMW, it takes more than cheap horsepower and orange-red gauge lighting so Pontiac must drop the fat from their product line to focus on the few important models they will carry.
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Deartháir II
01/07/09

@Jordan Denhoed: In fairness, though, part of the reason Holden got a metric fuckload of extra funding to develop the Zeta platform was that it was always intended to be a "world car". Holden spent a lot more on that platform than on its predecessors, because they were pretty sure it would be used by more than just Holden. It's now the basis of the Camaro, the beautiful Buick Park Avenue, the Commodore/etc., and the G8. Is it really just re-branding when it was pretty well intentional from the outset?
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Charles_Barrett - Now with Variable-Valve Timing
01/07/09

In reply to Talking Pontiac's Post G8 ST Future With GM VP of Marketing Susan Docherty
Anyone else as impressed as I am that Jalopnik Senior Editorial Staffers can have a detailed, on-the-record telephone conversation with a VP at GM?

You can bet they wouldn't take just anyone's call...
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Deartháir II
01/07/09

@Charles_Barrett - Now with Variable-Valve Timing: As a bank manager, with money to lend, think they might want to talk to me?

I alluded to this earlier, but I'm very proud of how our little Jalopnik is getting all growed up. I've found references back to Jalopnik all over the 'Tubes. As an automotive journalism outlet, it's getting real, genuine respect in the automotive world, and I think huge props are deserved by the staff for what they've accomplished. Spinelli created a great formula, and Wert and crew have done an exceptional job of taking it to the next level.

Shit, was that a compliment for Wert and gang? I must need more Breakfast Scotch.
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quickstrike
01/07/09

In reply to Talking Pontiac's Post G8 ST Future With GM VP of Marketing Susan Docherty
I wanna new Tans AM, and for JEBUS SAKE Pontiac, put a the biggest, baddest, MEANEST looking bird on the hood that you possibly can.

Ask yourselves...what would Burt Reynolds do?
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MushyHeirloom
01/07/09

@quickstrike: Grow a mustache. That probably won't work for Susan.
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Jim-Bob
01/07/09

In reply to Talking Pontiac's Post G8 ST Future With GM VP of Marketing Susan Docherty
Did the world really need more Aveos? I mean, it's the worst car in it's class so what does GM do? Make it better? NO! Put a Pontiac rubber nose on it and call it a G3. Then they kill the only reason I would have for going into a Pontiac showroom, the G8 ST. So let's see, what cars DOES GM make that make it a better world now... The Corvette, G8, and the upcoming Camaro. That's it. All their other stuff is nothing but a bunch of useless fleet sales vehicles that pollute the Avis lots of the local airport. Let GM die.
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Deartháir II
01/07/09

@Jim-Bob: Malibu, also best in class. Cadillac CTS, as good as the competition for a much, much lower price. Solstice/Sky, excellent little roadsters. Astra, very good car...
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MushyHeirloom
01/07/09

@Deartháir: a Cruder, Fart-Joke Version of graverobber: Pity they've refused to properly advertise, er, any of them.

I mean, for fuck's sake. Pay people to test-drive the damn things if you must. Get 'em in there.
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Armand
01/07/09

In reply to Talking Pontiac's Post G8 ST Future With GM VP of Marketing Susan Docherty
Whatever Pontiac (and GM) do, I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that the "excitement" brand doesn't abandon rear-wheel drive. The past ten years or so have seen Pontiac make huge strides towards their goal-- so much so that the goal has been changed to "let's build an American BMW" from the earlier "let's build something that doesn't suck so hard." It would be a shame to see Pontiac slide back into front-drive, plastic-clad Grand Am-era lameness, especially when they have that lovely Solstice platform ready to underpin other small, competent rear-drive cars.
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Deartháir II
01/07/09

@Armand Bengle: VERY well put, Mr. Bengle. Here's a quote from Ensign Wesley:

"I wasn't kidding when I said E39 M5 with a Corvette engine and better steering. [...] This is a seriously good car, it might not grab headlines, but it's exactly the kind of car I want."

Can you even imagine an auto journalist waxing that kind of praise about a Pontiac even 6 or 7 years ago? Honestly, they have the platforms to make a real run at making a cheaper American BMW. Think about it. The Kappa platform is a great RWD small-car platform (BMW 1 series?). It's based off the Corvette platform, which is widely recognized as being excellent. The Zeta platform is flexible enough to fill in the rest. The shortened Zeta of the Camaro could serve for a 3-series challenger, the G8 already takes on the 5-series, and the lengthened Zeta of the Senator/Statesman could go after the 7-series.

Yes, I know this steps on Caddy toes, but just make the Caddies better and more luxurious. I would be foaming at the mouth for a half-price brand-new BMW.
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Armand
01/07/09

@Deartháir: a Cruder, Fart-Joke Version of graverobber: I'm glad we're in agreement. GM has all the pieces to give Pontiac a world-class lineup, and if it all falls through due to lack of funding it'll break my heart. I'm a born-and-raised BMW dude, and I honestly think there's no reason Pontiac can't beat ze Germans at their own game-- particularly since Bimmers have gotten ugly and bloated in the past decade. Pontiac doesn't need to step on Cadillac's toes, either-- Pontiac can go after BMW, and Caddy can take aim at Mercedes, although the two German brands aren't as different as they used to be.

Now, my dad has a 2005 BMW 530i. It's a great car. Silky-smooth inline six, pleasingly positive six-speed shifter, taut suspension, big enough to carry our whole family. It looks like the G8 does everything the 5-series does, except much cheaper and much faster. Of course, Pontiac has an image issue to overcome (due partly to the last 25 years of Pontiacs and partly to the last 25 years of Pontiac buyers) with the Euro-car set, but GM can use the Carpocalypse as a marketing tool: "We're starting with a fresh sheet of paper, and we've brought you the car we should have given you years ago." I've never been really gung-ho about American cars, but I really want this to happen. Dammit, GM, the pieces are right there on the workbench! Just put them together and get the cars out there!
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Deartháir II
01/07/09

@Armand Bengle: Pontiac can go after BMW, and Caddy can take aim at Mercedes, although the two German brands aren't as different as they used to be.

Shit, I never thought of it that way. That's perfect, let's do it. Armand Bengle for GM CEO '09. I'm putting a blue sign on my lawn.

I was just discussing this topic this morning with another car guy. I was saying my only hangup with the G8 was the lack of gadgetry... to which he reminded me that it was the main thing pissing me off about the new BMWs. I want a sporty CAR, not a friggin' mainframe. The G8 is basically a BMW without all the unnecessary crap.
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Serious Mopar Jones- Incurable
01/07/09

In reply to Talking Pontiac's Post G8 ST Future With GM VP of Marketing Susan Docherty
Now everybody who was going to buy one will just have to build a pressure-treated 2x6 flatbed for their '94 Grand Am instead, what a shame.
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Ash78, cube farmer
01/07/09

@Slantsick, now with 30% less wit: Haha, I was just thinking "Well, I guess it'll be a 4x8 trailer from Harbor Freight instead"

I still hold out some hope for the sportwagon. Some.
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Serious Mopar Jones- Incurable
01/07/09

@Ash78: I certainly approve of the idea of a RWD wagon, but personally, my '92 F150 is the newest vehicle I'll ever own, and if they put a 50 mpg/500 hp V8/RWD drivetrain in a gold-plated Zooey Deschanel it still wouldn't sucker me into buying another GM product for the rest of my life, so the whole thing is moot.
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TriShield
01/07/09

In reply to Talking Pontiac's Post G8 ST Future With GM VP of Marketing Susan Docherty
Pontiac is dead, and has been dead for years.

The brand's best selling car is the G6 and half of it's total sales are to fleets. Everything else doesn't sell well at all, even the G8 sedan which has only moved a meager 15,000 units.

GM does not have the money or talent to make Pontiac into something other than it already is. They could have given Pontiac a real shot in the arm by producing a Firebird twin to the new Camaro, it was viturally a no brainger and they didn't do it.

Nobody wants Aussie Holdens from Pontiac. Nobody wants a Miata me-too. Nobody associates Pontiac with BMW nor do they want BMW-like cars from it.

Frankly, nobody cares about Pontiac. It's toast folks.
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DoctorNine
01/07/09

@TriShield: "Nobody wants Aussie Holdens from Pontiac..."

I guess I must be named 'Nobody' then. Because I am totally stoked about getting a G8 GXP as soon as they come out. Actually, I kinda like that name.

Guys, meet Nobody, and his sister, Naomi...
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pauljones
01/07/09

@DoctorNine:

Hi Nobody, my name is No-one!

Hot sister, btw. :p
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Mad_Science
01/07/09

@TriShield: I want Aussie Holdens from Pontiac. I want a Miata me-too. I associate Pontiac of today with BMW of the 90s.

Unfortunately, the only manual transmission they chose to offer in their sport sedan comes at the $40k price point. Additionally, they (at least previously) refused to build the G8 Sportwagon, which would be a perfect replacement for my WRX Sportwagon.

Is it so bad if Pontiac contracts to a core set of semi-low-volume niche sellers that piggyback on other mass-market GM engineering efforts?

GM doesn't need two Chevys. The only case for Pontiac to exist is to maintain (re-earn?) performance credibility. If they can't find a way to make that work, then maybe they should shut it down.
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General Halfshaftery
01/07/09

In reply to Talking Pontiac's Post G8 ST Future With GM VP of Marketing Susan Docherty
All i want to know is when the next Phoenix will hit the streets.

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MushyHeirloom
01/07/09

@General Halfshaftery: It's called the G5 now.
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Bumblebee
01/07/09

In reply to Talking Pontiac's Post G8 ST Future With GM VP of Marketing Susan Docherty
Unless I'm mistaken, the G3 will be identical to the Aveo aside from badging.

This makes me wonder if any foreign automakers sell multiple models with only different badging here in the U.S.? I can't think of any.

Then I wonder why that is.
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MushyHeirloom
01/07/09

@Bumblebee: Nissan Frontier/Suzuki Equator, but that's like the Isonda Rodeo/Passport and Odyssey/Oasis. There's a couple of Dodge trucks that have/will have Japanese branding, too (Mistersquishy Raider's a Dakota, the new Titan will be a Ram).

The closest thing I can think of to an on-the-same-terms comparison, though, is the Lexus ES/Toyota Camry, and that's gotten progressively more different (if not under the skin, then on the outside) as the years have passed. Acuras are JDM/Euro Hondas, Infiniti serves the same purpose for Nissan... so really it's just Toyota.

Oddly, Toyota's the most Americanized Japanese car company. Funny 'bout that.
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Jeb_Hoge
01/07/09

@Bumblebee: They don't do it here, but it does get done overseas. I can't remember the names but there are two or three compacts sold under different nameplates that are fundamentally the same car...Top Gear has even talked about which one to buy to get the best value.
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pauljones
01/07/09

@FuzzyPlushroom:

Oddly, Toyota's the most Americanized Japanese car company. Funny 'bout that.

Quick, sign them up for a bailout

/Sorry. I couldn't resist.
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Six Flags Over Tomsk
01/07/09

@Jeb_Hoge: That would be the Citroen C1/Peugeot 107/Toyota Aygo triplets.
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Deartháir II
01/07/09

In reply to Talking Pontiac's Post G8 ST Future With GM VP of Marketing Susan Docherty
Wojzilla, I'm assuming you meant the Enclave in the article, not the Rendezvous?
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WheatKing
01/07/09

In reply to Talking Pontiac's Post G8 ST Future With GM VP of Marketing Susan Docherty
I so hope that right now Chrysler is chopping the rear doors out of the old magnum, tossin the roof aside and stamping out a bedliner to fit in the gapin hole.
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Mad_Science
01/07/09

@WheatKing: Rampage!!!
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Deartháir II
01/07/09

@Mad_Science: No, don't do that, WheatKing's a nice guy.

Science SMASH! RRRRRRGH!
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Mad_Science
01/07/09

@Deartháir: a Cruder, Fart-Joke Version of graverobber: Ahem:

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Deartháir II
01/07/09

@Mad_Science: Oh I'm well aware of it... it was just a whole lot funnier to think of mild-mannered Mad_Science going all Incredible Hulk on us:

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DoctorNine
01/07/09

@Mad_Science: Wrong one. Dodge needs to build this one, with a medium displacement diesel, LIKE I WROTE THEM in 2006!

We've talked GM long enough.

If Chryslerberus wants to build a seller, here it is.
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Novaload
01/07/09

In reply to Talking Pontiac's Post G8 ST Future With GM VP of Marketing Susan Docherty
So I guess the "We Build Excitement" tag is pretty much dead now.
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DoctorNine
01/07/09

@NovaloadMissesPolar: They changed it to, "We feel sporty!"

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MushyHeirloom
01/07/09

@NovaloadMissesPolar: "We Build Excrement".
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TampaRon
01/07/09

In reply to Talking Pontiac's Post G8 ST Future With GM VP of Marketing Susan Docherty
This woman obviously doesnt know anything about cars or what people really want to buy. The G3 is a joke and will do nothing but damage the brand even more.

The ST would have been paraded around all over the car mags and even the news just because of it being so different. The fact that it is a great car underneath would have then led to positive reviews and help the brands image! In the long-term scheme of things it would have paid off. You cant create positive reviews or a positive image, you have to earn it and the G3 will NOT do it.
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Ben Wojdyla
01/07/09

@TampaRon: Yes, that's why she's a VP. Don't be a dick. She was around when they were planning both the Cadillac brand rework and the Buick brand rework.
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TampaRon
01/07/09

@Ben Wojdyla: Thats nice...thanks. I dont see Cadillac slapping a big grill on the Aveo and thinking it will sell and Im sorry but Buick has a long way to go before it can be considered a viable "brand". Dick.
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Deartháir II
01/07/09

@TampaRon: See rlj676's comments above. It has more to do with timing than with "knowledge about cars". The G3 was done long before, and green-lit before the Carpocalypse. It's already a done deal, whereas the G8 ST is still in the planning stage. Let's face it, the G8 ST would still be risky, from a sales perspective. It might do great, it might not. The comments in this thread alone are enough to prove that. And like it or not, they will probably sell a whole metric fuckload of G3s.
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Mad_Science
01/07/09

In reply to Talking Pontiac's Post G8 ST Future With GM VP of Marketing Susan Docherty
So, this means they're making the G8 Sportwagon, right?

Given what she's saying, there's no excuse for not making that car.

Of course, given what she's saying about the G3, I have no reason to believe there's much rational thought going on.
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pauljones
01/07/09

@Mad_Science:

I wish. I frickin' wish. It would be as cool as the CTS wagon, only more easily affordable. As it stands, the only wagons on the market that I would rock are the Saab 9-3 wagon or the Jag X-type wagon. Well, an Audi A4 Wagon would be bitchin', too.
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TampaRon
01/07/09

@Mad_Science: Try NO rational thought going on. She's probably the same lady that spewed feminism all over the G6 by letting Oprah give them away.
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nosirrahg
01/07/09

@TampaRon: Make the G8 Sportwagon, and give one away to everyone in Leno's audience when he moves to primetime. THAT would be genius (if I do say so myself).
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Deartháir II
01/07/09

@Mad_Science: I would take the G8 Sportwagon in a second over the G8 GXP. Yes, I'd suffer through with a slushbox and only 350-ish horsepower for the extra utility of the wagon.
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DoctorNine
01/07/09

@Mad_Science: Just be glad you aren't in the marketing department at GM right about now. That's gotta be like standing naked on Mt. Everest with gale force winds that change direction randomly every thirty seconds or so.
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pauljones
01/07/09

@DoctorNine:

I dunno, that sounds like one of those cool life-changing experience things...I may have to try that.
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Six Flags Over Tomsk
01/07/09

@nosirrahg: Totally, but I still say "G8 Safari" would be the best name for such a contraption, both for the heritage and that it just sounds cool.
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DoctorNine
01/07/09

@pauljones: You're a wild one, aren't you Paul?
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MushyHeirloom
01/07/09

@Deartháir: a Cruder, Fart-Joke Version of graverobber: I'd pay an extra few grand for them to build me one with a stick.
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pauljones
01/07/09

@DoctorNine:

Oh yes.

Born to be wild, wild as the wind, and bad to the bone.

Look out, world!
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Deartháir II
01/07/09

@FuzzyPlushroom: I'm of the opinion that I'm happy just to get one. I'll quibble over the details once it's available on the lot.
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