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Detroit, 11:56 PM
Sat Nov 14
7 posts in the last 24 hours
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"Looks bad" = "loss"
"Looks bad 90% less" still = "loss"
The Prius 1.0 was sold at an average $6000 loss by Toyota acrossed it's lifetime.
The Insight 1.0 was, too, but I don't know the exact figure(s).
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The real advantage for the TDI, barring the usually VW gremlins, is potential lifespan. The diesel will probably chugging long after the Prius batteries have kicked the bucket, and the layout is easier to maintain. On the other hand, VW repair is expensive and replacement batteries on the Toyotas aren't atrociously expensive anymore (just mildly). Tough one.
01/13/09
Potential lifespan? Maybe you're confused with the robust and simple diesels à la Mercedes 300 tdi from the past, these ones are pretty complicated and their longevity has to be seen first.
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It's all a matter of context...hybrids' relative success in the US has been heavily because people's mental framework of fuel economy has been influenced by trucks and SUVs for so long. If our market had been 50%+ small cars (rather than 50% trucks) for the past decade, I'm guessing hybrids wouldn't have offered much relative benefit and might have been shelved by now. Just a theory.
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Now if only GM could make it.
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But I do agree that the real factor of importance is the price. If the Insight can get the pricing ~$19k, then it would obviously get a strong advantage over the Prius which should be $22-23k. People want to save money afterall.
But the "eco" factor is really strong as well. And things like solar roof really impress that market segment.
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Please name one currently selling Toyota model that is fun to drive, and I will consider your argument that the Insight might not win in this category.
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Actually, maybe neither. I'll wait until a couple of Japanese car firms release two nearly identical hybrid cars. Then deciding won't be so hard.
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But they would never do that, because it would probably get over 40mpg combined and teach people that the hybrid drivetrain is only part of the story. If we accepted the rest of the aero/rolling drag compromises, we could improve EVERY car's economy pretty substantially. Of course, that would stifle development of hybrid drivetrains, but it would be a nice experiment to determine how much of the overall economy is coming from the drivetrain itself.
Just a quick apples & oranges point.
01/13/09
It'd be great to see something like the Honda Fit sold with a manual transmission and its current engine, but all the aero aids and other simple stuff that really helps boost mileage. Something like the old CRX HF.
01/13/09
What really gets me is you can get a Jetta TDI with better mileage and better looks than the Insight. Of course, then you wouldn't be able to take part in the ecosnobbery that surrounds these two cars.
Or you can get the Ford Fusion ECOnetic oil-burner which gets 65 mpg -- better than the Prius. [www.businessweek.com]
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Our entire transport infrastructure is built on diesel. How we've gone so long with so little attention or relief from Washington is beyond me. Our own refineries load diesel fuel onto ships and send it to Asia and Europe while our own economy suffers in part due to inflated diesel prices.
But let's just throw some money at consumers instead, that'll solve everything!
/rant off
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Diesels are always going to be dirtier on particulates (which are proven to increase lung cancer and URIs). But they can be pretty darn competitive with hybrids on CO2, which is part of why Europe has been eating them up for so long.
01/13/09
There are (have been) many european cars that are similar in size, have the same kind of engine, weight and aerodynamics, so maybe you could look into a comparison. Wont be easy to find one that get's over 40 combined, if at all.
01/13/09
If they really wanted to improve the mileage, they'd just drop the hybrid part of the drivetrain. It'd just be slower.
I think what people forget is that the point of a hybrid is really to _improve performance_. The electric motor and batteries are just there to make the car accelerate faster. Outside of the slight mileage boost from driving the first mile on battery (more of a gimmick than anything), the fuel economy gains come from using a smaller engine. You don't need a big engine when you are cruising at a steady speed, it just wastes more fuel.
01/13/09
Ford is going the direction of a smaller engine with turbocharging and direct injection with their Ecoboost line. That seems to be a winning combination, too.
01/13/09
Others, however, use the hybrid for increased efficiency. The least fuel-efficient point is when the car is idling, and then leaving a full-stop. If the electric engine can get the car rolling so there is minimal strain on the gas engine, it uses a lot less gas. I believe the Escape Hybrid is set up this way.
There is an advantage to a Hybrid. It means that you can put in an engine far too small for the vehicle and still operate normally. Problem is, nobody's doing that.
01/13/09
As I've said (enough times that people are probably sick of hearing it), I did an extended test of a G8 GT on cruise control on the highway. It got better than 7L/100km, which I think is around 30 mpg, thanks to cylinder deactivation. In a big, full-sized car, from a 6L V8 that will eat sports cars when you want it to. Tell me why that's not a GREAT option in a car? I'll take that over a hybrid, thanks.
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Oh Lord, free me from the specter of an electric world,and deliver me into a sane future filled with biogas/biobutanol and internal combustion goodness.
Lord i am cast adrift into the desert of bland electric auto homogenation which still relies on Coal Power. Lord show me the way, to not step on the rights of others to drive what they want, and yet forgive me my trespasses in dreaming of Green Internal Combustion.
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It all works out in the end.
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