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LandofMinos, Prediction, probability of procuring a poncy Prius for purchase. Piss off!
10/07/09

In reply to NHTSA Opens Investigation Into Tundra Frame Rust Reports
That's fucking surprising for Toyota!

Seriously, how the hell would such a reputable car maker have let this happen?
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discontinuuity has left the Jalop until further notice
10/07/09

In reply to NHTSA Opens Investigation Into Tundra Frame Rust Reports
That's funny, all the '80s Toyota pickups I've ever seen have terrible body rust (ie, holes you could toss a cat through on the bed) but totally solid frames. You would think that Toyota would've figured out how to make their trucks rust at a consistent rate by now.
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MushyHeirloom
10/07/09

@discontinu uity: Yeah, Detroit figured out how to make an acceptable interior and Korea managed to make an engine that would last more than 100k... where's Japan with the rustproofing?

For that matter, we're still waiting for the Germans to master wiring, too.
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InsertBullets
10/07/09

In reply to NHTSA Opens Investigation Into Tundra Frame Rust Reports
Isn't this how a Tom Clancy book starts? Watch out next thing will be Honda invading Guam.
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dwegmull comments for the purpose of obscurity
10/07/09

In reply to NHTSA Opens Investigation Into Tundra Frame Rust Reports
I wonder if the one in Alameda are rusting.
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grzydj
10/07/09

In reply to NHTSA Opens Investigation Into Tundra Frame Rust Reports
A lot of guys in Minnesota find creative ways to keep their frames from rusting out. One guy I met slathers his frame rails in used motor oil. I looked underneath his '87 pickup and the frame looked nearly brand new.

I'm going to apply a few coats of Chassis Saver to mine. Maybe Toyota should do that on the current trucks that are still on the road.
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Alfisted promoted this comment grzydj was starred grzydj was unstarred

Alfisted
10/07/09

@grzydj: I can attest to the preservative properties of used motor oil (and gear oil). The undercarriage oiler came standard on my '84 Alfa Romeo.
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nataku8_e30
10/07/09

@Alfisted: It's also standard on pretty much every Jaguar ever produced. It's amazing that more companies didn't adopt the undercarriage oiler, although I guess it requires you to top off your oil fairly often. I think, between that and the quality of piston rings, valve seals, etc..., I can understand why old Jags had ~12 quart oil capacities...
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Saboth
10/07/09

@nataku8_e30:

Well there is also the fact the oil *does* wash off slowly and enters our soil/food supply/water table eventually.

If every car came slathered in motor oil, I'd assume we'd have quite a problem.
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philibuster promoted this comment Saboth was starred Saboth was unstarred

philibuster
10/07/09

@Saboth: you just have to cook the oil a bit, then it gets more solid.
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MushyHeirloom
10/07/09

@grzydj: My '89 Volvo was oiled yearly by the previous owner. Made a ridiculous mess of the engine compartment, but there's no rust...
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conordempsey
10/07/09

In reply to NHTSA Opens Investigation Into Tundra Frame Rust Reports
I am not amused Toyota. At the risk of sounding like the super biased fan boy I am, my '90 F-150 is still totally solid.
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DonLuc
10/07/09

@conordempsey:

Okay, but being the Toyota fanboy I am (not), I have to assume that your F-150 has had the motor rebuilt 5 times and is on its 3rd transmission.
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pauljones promoted this comment DonLuc was starred DonLuc was unstarred

pauljones
10/07/09

@DonLuc: Probably not, actually.
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DonLuc
10/07/09

@pauljones:

My Explorer is on the original motor and transmission and will hit 200k miles early next year. It has single-handedly changed my opinion on American made vehicles--I was just playing D.A.
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conordempsey
10/07/09

@DonLuc: Not a chance. You're confusing 'F-150' with 'Silverado'
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Alfisted
10/07/09

In reply to NHTSA Opens Investigation Into Tundra Frame Rust Reports
This seems like the only honorable end for a vehicle that fails to live up to its ancestral traditions.
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TurboBrick [LIGIER]
10/07/09

@Alfisted: I thought thorough rusting WAS a japanese car tradition?
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MushyHeirloom promoted this comment

Flathead Smith
10/07/09

In reply to NHTSA Opens Investigation Into Tundra Frame Rust Reports
If you’ll notice the frame is nearly gone, but it looks as though there is not a hint of rust on the body panels, so though the truck is rusted in the core, the exterior still looks great. There is an analogy here regarding Japanese social culture, in regards to outward perception verses the actual result.
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microcars
10/07/09

@Flathead Smith: and if you bothered to read the linked "article" you would find that all the trucks in question, including earlier Tacomas all apparently share a common US supplier from OHIO:

"1995-2004 Tacoma pickups and 2000-01 Tundras shared the same frame supplier: Toledo, Ohio-based Dana Holding Corporation. In investigating the Tacoma’s rust complaints, Toyota discovered that Dana hadn’t properly prepped Tacoma frames to resist corrosion before they were shipped to Toyota’s NUMMI manufacturing plant, where the Tacoma was assembled."

so it seems to be US supplier problem at the moment, not one of Japanese Social Culture.
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Mike the Dog promoted this comment microcars was starred microcars was unstarred

Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face.
10/07/09

@microcars: Your argument conveniently ignores the fact that Dana built and supplied these frames to Toyota's specification. If these frames were not in compliance with Toyota's engineering specifications, they would not have been used. Ergo, regardless of who made the parts in question, this is Toyota's fault and responsibility because they dictated the specs and agreed by using the parts that they were indeed within spec. Looking at the steel used in the readily visible parts of the truck, which doesn't seem to be rusted at all even though it's obviously not undercoated, I'd say that this has everything to do with the Japanese social culture's emphasis on maintaining a good appearance while neglecting the underlying issues (which in this case turn out to be much more important in the long run).
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CJinSD
10/07/09

@Mike the Dog: These things were built by the UAW in California using Dana supplied frames and you're blaming cultural stereotypes of the Japanese. Unlike the owners of most vehicles sabotaged by the UAW, at least Toyota owners have been spared by Toyota's willingness to stand behind their product. Perhaps they'll learn that there is no point standing behind UAW product, much as the 'big 3' have, but so far they've put their customers first while you blame them for crappy union workmanship.
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pauljones promoted this comment CJinSD was starred CJinSD was unstarred

pauljones
10/07/09

@CJinSD: The cultural stereotype thing was a joke. We make jokes on Jalopnik from time to time.

And again, as much as I dislike the UAW, you are also ignoring Mike's point. No matter what the UAW workers produce, it is the corporation that is accepting that work, and in doing so certifying that the work is satisfactory according to their specifications. Therefore, quality issues are the fault of the corporation, not the worker or the supplier.
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microcars
10/07/09

@Mike the Dog:
+2/10
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Flathead Smith
10/07/09

@microcars: If you would have bothered to read my post, you would have noticed that I said it was "an analogy". I did not mention anything about frame sourcing or causes.

Typically a company’s response is to blame the supplier; think of Ford and Firestone. Toyota has a Quality Control Department, and if there was a specification for an anti-corrosion compound they would have checked for it.

This is conjecture on my part, but I believe the frames were made of rather low quality steel based on the pictures I’ve seen. Even though a vendor supplied these frames, Toyota would have been intimately involved in the sourcing of the steel. Low quality steel will corrode at a higher rate than its higher carbon content counterparts, and the steel used in the frame was approved/specified by Toyota.
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Edited by Flathead Smith at 10/07/09 11:23 AM Flathead Smith was starred Flathead Smith was unstarred

Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face.
10/07/09

@CJinSD: Okay, I'm going to say this slowly, so you understand. The UAW didn't build these trucks, NUMMI did. UAW employees didn't work up the engineering specs for the frames. UAW employees didn't test and approve the pre-production examples that were provided by Dana. UAW employees didn't quality test and approve in-production samples of these frames and reach the conclusion that they were within specification. NUMMI salaried employees are responsible for all of those things, as well as the specs of the exterior sheetmetal, which they were apparently much more stringent about. Whether or not this can be traced to a cultural stereotype is really irrelevant, although it's much more plausible than your blanket blackwashing of a bunch of line workers bolting together the parts they're given. This isn't about the parts being put together sloppily, this is about specifications that weren't adequate to get the job done going past several levels of review without being challenged. None of those review levels fell under the purview of the UAW, to my knowledge. Hell, I'm not even 100% sure that NUMMI is a UAW plant.

EDIT: After doing a little research, I discover that NUMMI is indeed a UAW plant, but that doesn't affect most of the above.

I have no love for unions in general, but it pains me to see people bashing on them for issues that they plainly aren't responsible for.
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Edited by Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. at 10/07/09 11:13 AM

microcars
10/07/09

@Flathead Smith:
"Low quality steel will corrode at a higher rate than its higher carbon content counterparts"

So the addition of Carbon helps with corrosion resistance?
You need to brush up on your metallurgy.
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dodgepolara500
10/07/09

@microcars:
Where is the almighty quality control from Toyota? Don't they check on their suppliers to see how such an important part such as this is built?
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TexanIdiot25- needs moar horse powah promoted this comment dodgepolara500 was starred dodgepolara500 was unstarred

Racin_G73 - dirt track legend (some day ... maybe)
10/07/09

@Mike the Dog: Good point, and well put. To add to it, I have to relate the story of my high school band teacher who many times - when he was at his most frustrated with his students - told us the following.

You're going to end up doing/people like you are the reason for/etc. etc. etc. ... "my Oldsmobile with the light in the glove box that won't turn off."

I'm not sure if he was trying to say that we were going to end up poorly motivated assembly line workers with no regard for QA? Or maybe he was saying we were going to be the managers who crushed those workers' spirits, leading to poor motivation and no regard for QA. Either way, it was mostly funny just because he kept saying it, every time he'd get super frustrated.
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Mike the Dog promoted this comment

CJinSD
10/07/09

@Mike the Dog: Being wrong about the UAW's presence at NUMMI and at Dana Holdings doesn't affect most what you wrote on the subject? What would affect your opinion on this, just for context? Toyota and Dana almost certainly have UAW slugs doing their quality inspections in those plants. Sure, it is Toyota's fault. It is Toyota and Dana Holdings' fault for keeping factories open once the UAW has infected them. They're still better than Ford, GM or Chrysler because they have at least tried to protect their customers from losses resulting from UAW workmanship.
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microcars
10/07/09

@dodgepolara500:
+1/10
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pauljones
10/07/09

@CJinSD: Smooth move. You just answered your own question and made yourself look a little foolish at the same time.

It doesn't matter who does the work or where. If a UAW guy is the one handling the inspections, then it is because Toyota put him there. Even then, Toyota still has its own inspectors that sign off on them before Toyta accepts the completed vehicles. Therefore, it is still Toyota's fault.

I tend to side against what the UAW has become, but even so, statements like yours reflect poorly on both sides.
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Flathead Smith
10/07/09

@microcars: Typically steel with higher carbon content will also have other alloying agents which resists corrosion.

But, the rust formed on lower alloy steels is not as tightly bound to the surface, which in effect means that the rust flakes off promoting more rust. The higher content carbon steels do rust, but the rust is tightly bonded to the surface of the steel which acts as a barrier to further corrosion.

Then there is cast Iron which has very high carbon content and will flash rust, but then is corrosion resistant.
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Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face.
10/07/09

@CJinSD: Very little of what I said there was opinion. I have worked in plenty of manufacturing environments and in none of them were decisions about parts sourcing and suitability made by hourly employees. In fact, Every quality control person I've ever dealt with who had the power to accept/reject material or parts for any but the most basic, visual reasons was salaried and not a union member. This actually doesn't even address the point I made originally, that the engineers who determined the specifications and the multiple levels of oversight that approved not only the specifications but the supplied pre-production parts and in-process parts were definitely not UAW members. Your use of the phrase "UAW slugs" and equating UAW presence with "infection" reveals your ingrained bias and apparently deeply held anti-labor sentiments, so I will not further attempt to change your mind with facts, as I know from experience that this is futile. I would like to know however, how not being 100% sure = being wrong, especially after I went and found out for sure and reported that fact?
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Edited by Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. at 10/07/09 4:22 PM

Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face.
10/07/09

@racin_g73: Which leads to the question "why didn't he take the Oldsmobile back to the dealer and get the switch adjusted/replaced?" It sounds like a five minute fix that any one of the lot porters could have handled (and would probably have been a no-charge to boot). I guess he preferred to have a reminder of how much he hates people with dirty fingernails.
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tad49
10/07/09

@pauljones: after inspecting one or two, Toyota should have been able to trust Dana to do the right thing. Surely you dont think that a Toyota exec has to inspect EVERY chassis? Get real!
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pauljones promoted this comment tad49 was starred tad49 was unstarred

pauljones
10/07/09

@tad49: Yes, I do. That is par course for this kind of manufacturing.

This isn't the same as manufacturing a tv or a microwave. When it comes things like cars, a reputation for reliability and toughness is important, and Toyota understands that, and have made tough, reliable cars in the past.

In fact, they take it so seriously that when a batch of discarded prototype TRD superchargers for the first-gen Tundras were found being sold online, Toyota sued the crap out the employee responsible for letting them out.

And also, it wouldn't be Toyota exec, but rather someone appointed by a Toyota exec.
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Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face.
10/07/09

@tad49: Surely you don't think a Toyota exec inspects any chassis? Get real! they have qualified engineers and safety people that they pay very well to attend to that. Inspecting one or two and then expecting every single one after that to be perfect and in-spec is not only moronic, I can assure you Toyota doesn't do it. Ever heard of ISO 9001, QS 9000* and about a hundred other alpha-numeric quality standards? They're a pain in the ass to keep up with, but they do a real good job of making sure that the parts that go into our cars are deemed satisfactory by the final assembler before they're installed.

*Note: These designations may be incorrect/outdated, but I think you can get the point.
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bradyb
10/07/09

In reply to NHTSA Opens Investigation Into Tundra Frame Rust Reports
Do they come rusted from the factory? Watch the new Tundra Shake it like a polaroid picture:
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P161911 probably shoudn't have promoted this comment Edited by bradyb at 10/07/09 9:54 AM bradyb was starred bradyb was unstarred

Quattro-luvr
10/07/09

@bradyb: Dayum! Can't wait to show this to a friend who loves Toyota vehicles.
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JawzX2: Hoon The Earth @ www.cafepress.com/jawzx2
10/07/09

@bradyb: wow, the Ford really seems to have it's shit together, I'd like to see an SVT Raptor do that test ;) And yes, the bed flex on the Toyo is spectacular.
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TexanIdiot25- needs moar horse powah promoted this comment

Froggmann
10/07/09

@bradyb: Watch it wiggle watch it giggle...
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TexanIdiot25- needs moar horse powah promoted this comment Froggmann was starred Froggmann was unstarred

LBJ's Love Child
10/07/09

@bradyb:

So, I take it TUNDRA is the Japanese word for JELLO?
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Psiu! Puxa!: You're right, Mopar or no car!
10/07/09

@bradyb: Holy crap. That bed flex is sickening. I now have another reason not to buy a Japanese pickup.
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TexanIdiot25- needs moar horse powah promoted this comment

Prawo Jazdy and The Velocity Trumpets: I miss Deartháir II
10/07/09

In reply to NHTSA Opens Investigation Into Tundra Frame Rust Reports
Somewhere a GM fan boy is crying tears of joy. They are a malicious breed.
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ryanmartin86
10/07/09

In reply to NHTSA Opens Investigation Into Tundra Frame Rust Reports
I'm not sure who made the frame for these or the coating, but I've heard Dana is at fault. Not thick enough metal plus a sheisty coating make for a great combo. Could you imagine when the tech puts this thing on the lift and the spring lets go....wow.
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TexanIdiot25- needs moar horse powah promoted this comment ryanmartin86 was starred ryanmartin86 was unstarred

TexanIdiot25- needs moar horse powah
10/07/09

@ryanmartin86: Dana builds to Toyota's specs.
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djmohab2
10/07/09

@TexanIdiot25- needs moar horse powah: plus Toyota approves the frames once they receive them from Dana.
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passersby
10/07/09

@djmohab2: Dana is not the only frame supplier but is apparently the only one supplying substandard frames.
I'm no expert but I'd guess specs or no specs, whatever causes the rust is not detectable during whatever inspection people seem to think is taking place.
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Mike the Dog promoted this comment passersby was starred passersby was unstarred

microcars
10/07/09

@djmohab2:
so by accepting delivery they agreed that all the frames were good?
By your logic Firestone is off the hook for all those bad tires they supplied to Ford.
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Mike the Dog promoted this comment microcars was starred microcars was unstarred

Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face.
10/07/09

@microcars: Um, tires and frames are a little different. For starters, tires are wear parts and not structural members, therefore they're not expected to outlast the drivetrain and body. Also, it was demonstrated that failure to maintain proper tire pressure was partially to blame in many of the blowout incidents (coupled with the dynamically unstable design of an SUV, it's tragedy looking for a place to happen). When was the last time you bought a brand new pickup truck frame without a truck attached to it? Better yet, when was the last time you found the air pressure in your frame was low?
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Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face.
10/07/09

@passersby: Where did you read that there were other suppliers of these frames during these periods and that the Dana frames are the only ones failing? I must have missed that part of the linked article.
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Edited by Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. at 10/07/09 9:58 PM

Captain Liverspots
10/07/09

In reply to NHTSA Opens Investigation Into Tundra Frame Rust Reports
And people say Toyota doesn't make exciting vehicles...
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Captain Liverspots was starred

Jokermanpaco
10/07/09

In reply to NHTSA Opens Investigation Into Tundra Frame Rust Reports
Somehow, not surprising. Maybe it's the fact that I STILL see fairly new Honda, Nissan and Toyota vehicles with rust forming in the usual places. Where as the domestics and Europeans seem to have gotten rust prevention down to a pretty decent rate.
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bmoreDLJ
10/07/09

In reply to NHTSA Opens Investigation Into Tundra Frame Rust Reports
Ideally, a truck frame shouldn't be rusting, but if you put upwards of $20K into a truck, the least you can do is take a monthly cursory glance at its underside before the rust gets dangerously bad.

With a pickup this is easier to do due to the ground clearance, and with trucks being used for work (i.e. moving, hauling, towing, etc.), it's even more important to make sure everything is structurally ship-shape.

So, anyone out there with a Toyota pickup (Marty McFly, I'm looking at you): kindly take a quick look underneath it for signs of rust. It just might save lives.
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Edited by bmoreDLJ at 10/07/09 9:32 AM bmoreDLJ was starred bmoreDLJ was unstarred

pauljones
10/07/09

@bmoreDLJ: Perhaps, but I would also argue that if you're going to put $20k+ into a pickup, the least you can do is put into a pickup from a manufacturer that isn't known for having that problem.

I notice that it only mentions 01-04 pickups; I wonder if any of the 99-00 trucks are having that issue.
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TexanIdiot25- needs moar horse powah
10/07/09

@bmoreDLJ: There should be absolutely no worry of a rusty frame on a late model truck, period. This is inexcusable. If your spending any money on a late model, that frame needs to outlast the rest of the ruck. I don't even see rust this bad on 30-50 year old trucks left in fields.
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Flathead Smith
10/07/09

In reply to NHTSA Opens Investigation Into Tundra Frame Rust Reports
Ain’t nothing that a bunch of scabbed on angle iron won’t fix.
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lilwillie
10/07/09

@Flathead Smith: Seen that done a few times. I've never done it because I refuse to stamp my name on the job. Most rust out just past the area welded because most don't clean and seal it up properly when they are done.
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