Some manuals I've driven--like an auntie's Ford Escort --were so loosey-goosey in the gears they were almost like automatics.
Weird, but last night I dreamed I was driving some 3 on the floor old monster. No idea what it was, or was supposed to be, but winding out in second was so wicked sounding that I just kept looking for places to downshift so I would wind it out again.
Maybe I'm psychic and knew this would be the COTD.
Yeah, maybe. But if I'm psychic, where the eff are my winning Lotto numbers then?
Is there a case for automatics? Sure - you're handicapped and only have one arm to drive with. Everyone else needs to learn to stir 'em themselves.
If you can't handle a small multifunction process like shifting, you have no place being behind the much busier multifunction environment of the wheel.
In my experience, manuals last longer, break less, and break less expensively when they do break. If it means you have to leave your coffee in the cupholder that much longer, then so be it - you're not in the car for a latte, you're trying to get somewhere.
@Elhigh: It does seem that an automatic is an all or nothing proposition, sometimes they might slip a little, but all the ones I've had go bad on me went straight to the "won't go or won't go in reverse" stage. A stick might have a syncro go out, or be a little tough to get in gear, but takes a long time to copletely die. At some point the clutch will need to be replaced, but you can usaually live with the rest.
@sos10 votes NO on prop8: Lawn mower accident - the starter pawls slipped and the rope came all the way out with no resistance, when it got to the very end it yanked my fingers open and I tore some ligaments in my forearm. Sling, muscle relaxers, two weeks.
That and the wife's Forester is an auto. Meh. We liked the Forester but got the auto because there's no room for my feet down there with three pedals. Never again.
1.) Manuals are simpler and lighter. They should be the primary transmission in inexpensive cars, for reasons of weight, repairability, and efficiency.
2.)Automatics (whether hydraulic, DSG, or whatever) have specific places where they are appropriate. Even preferred. My last classic '60s Buick is a great example, as has been mentioned. They are good for intermediate towing too, in an F250 or whatever.
3.) Automated manuals (which are really automatics) can't do the same things as a true manual with a driver operated clutch. There are things I can do with that that a DSG simply cannot do. Making the fastest time to 60MPH actually is the least important of the special advantages of a manual transmission.
4.) Choice is a factor in being able to sell anything, cars or shoes. Deciding NOT to market this choice is a constraint on sales. If it is indeed true that the primary reason for this is over-regulation, then the industry should seek redress in the legislative process. They easily could do this, and the political climate for re-examining the bureaucratic obstacles to more streamlined safety screening seems to be at its height. So if I were a manufacturer, I would take my case to John Q. Public directly, and retry that Euro safety reciprocity thing tht was done a while back. It might just work this time around.
Frickin' DSG. VW/Audi goes on and on about how it shifts quicker than any human can--perhaps true in a technical sense, but people buy DSGs BECAUSE THEY WANT AN AUTOMATIC. Period. Not for lap times, not for automatic throttle-blipped downshifts, not because they want to feel like an F1 driver. It's BECAUSE THEY WANT AN AUTOMATIC. If buyers would just admit that to themselves, they might have gotten a real slushbox instead of an ultra-complicated and not-as-effective manu-matic equivalent. Is there a case to be made for automatics? Sure. Is there a case to be made for those who are in denial that there isn't? Not so much.
My god, all these responses and I don't see one correct answer. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?
Haven't you ever had an old American luxobarge? WOJZILLA! You have a fucking Continental! Where the hell are you to speak up on this?
These cars cannot have a manual transmission. Cannot, because they have a big bench seat, and having to shift gears would cause the problem of having to move the hand that is supposed to be wrapped around (and "accidentally" resting on the cleavage of) that good-looking girl you talked into parking her Sunfire and coming for a ride.
Do I have to teach you people everything? GOD. Kids these days.
@petersterncan: Not only have I heard of it, I have a car with a three-on-the-tree and an automatic overdrive, engaged with a little lever below the steering column, and then shifted into overdrive by getting the car up to cruising speed and lifting your foot off the gas.
They are MORE work than a manual, not less. Don't get me wrong, it may be one of the most enjoyable experiences there is, but it does not prevent you from having to remove your hand from said lovely lady's mammaries.
I think one reason that you don't see more stick shifts, even though they do have very low take rates, is that each individual engine and transmission combination now must be emissions certified. So even if one of the imports offers a stick shift overseas, it isn't worth it to get it certified for US sales.
Why is this even a question. Of course there is a case for traditional planetary stepped gear automatics.
There are many vehicles I would never want a manual transmission in. Sports cars, race cars, most economy cars yes. My truck, daily driven comfort car, no.
Automatics have gotten to the point of being more reliable than a traditional stick and clutch setup and nowadays can even match the fuel mileage.
Only pure fanboyism would ignore the fact that in most cases, an automatic can now do a better job than a manual.
Confession time here. I never learned to drive a stick. It's not that I'm uninterested or incapable; I just never got around to it.
So when you all start talking about "sweet 'snik-snik' double-clutch downshift right into the torque range at the apex of the corner", I fell like a porn-loving eunich. He watches..and knows, with an awful certainty, they're having LOTS of fun, but he...just...can't.
@SCROGGS!: It isn't too late to learn! I didn't learn to drive a stick shift until I was 25 and about to graduate college. The way that I learned was by buying a car with a stick shift. It was a 1992 T-Bird S/C, talk about rare with a manual trans. I had my father do the test drive and drive it home. After that I took about 2 or 3 days and learned how to drive it. My next car was a C4 vette with a 6-speed. I went back to an automatic on the one afer that, 96 Z-28, and hated it. I'm still debating on switching my C3 vette to a stick if I ever get it back on the road. From now on a stick in any car that weighs less than 4000lbs.
That being said the only place for automatics, for me, is in large luxobarges (Caddy, Imperial, Lincoln, Mercedes S-class, etc) or maybe trucks and SUVs.
@sos10 votes NO on prop8: Did you see Jeremy Clarkson's review of the Maserati Quatroporte? That modern F1 gearbox didn't look like it could shift gears faster than I could... and Clarkson hated it too. And lower end versions you get in other cars like the Smart car are downright awful and add seconds to 0-60 times. And even if a sequential gearbox is set up to react quicker... so what?
In day to day driving it doesn't matter.
The point behind a manual is that it's cheaper and more fun.
It also won't kill you the way starting a car with a hand crank can.
@petersterncan: The Smart has an automated manual box, a very different system (and honestly I hate it).. Of course a modern F1 style gearbox is faster than you or me, that's one of the reasons they make them.
I thought long and hard when I ordered it. Three pedals were available (and cheaper!) but 90% of my driving is either in SF Bay Area traffic or on strait interstates at constant speed. I occasionally use the manual mode (steep hills mostly) but I find it frustrating as the shift occurs about half a second after I push or pull the lever...
Oddly enough I've started missing driving a stick since I started ridding my bicycle more: it's only a three speed but changing gears is fun!
I've never tried a DSG though, maybe it is a happy compromise.
It's manual for me, and my wife, through and through. I love to row the gears. However, I'd trade it for an auto in a second with my heavy clutch in stop and go traffic.
Unintended consequence: I pushed for flex time at work, in part because driving a manual during rush hour was hell.
Now I've been doing the 7-4 thing for 2+ years and it has improved MANY elements of my life...almost all of it traced back to the pain of a heavy, hydraulic clutch. :D
10/31/08
Weird, but last night I dreamed I was driving some 3 on the floor old monster. No idea what it was, or was supposed to be, but winding out in second was so wicked sounding that I just kept looking for places to downshift so I would wind it out again.
Maybe I'm psychic and knew this would be the COTD.
Yeah, maybe. But if I'm psychic, where the eff are my winning Lotto numbers then?
Hmmm. Maybe that was "psycho."
10/31/08
If you can't handle a small multifunction process like shifting, you have no place being behind the much busier multifunction environment of the wheel.
In my experience, manuals last longer, break less, and break less expensively when they do break. If it means you have to leave your coffee in the cupholder that much longer, then so be it - you're not in the car for a latte, you're trying to get somewhere.
10/31/08
10/31/08
11/01/08
That and the wife's Forester is an auto. Meh. We liked the Forester but got the auto because there's no room for my feet down there with three pedals. Never again.
10/31/08
10/31/08
2.)Automatics (whether hydraulic, DSG, or whatever) have specific places where they are appropriate. Even preferred. My last classic '60s Buick is a great example, as has been mentioned. They are good for intermediate towing too, in an F250 or whatever.
3.) Automated manuals (which are really automatics) can't do the same things as a true manual with a driver operated clutch. There are things I can do with that that a DSG simply cannot do. Making the fastest time to 60MPH actually is the least important of the special advantages of a manual transmission.
4.) Choice is a factor in being able to sell anything, cars or shoes. Deciding NOT to market this choice is a constraint on sales. If it is indeed true that the primary reason for this is over-regulation, then the industry should seek redress in the legislative process. They easily could do this, and the political climate for re-examining the bureaucratic obstacles to more streamlined safety screening seems to be at its height. So if I were a manufacturer, I would take my case to John Q. Public directly, and retry that Euro safety reciprocity thing tht was done a while back. It might just work this time around.
10/31/08
10/31/08
Haven't you ever had an old American luxobarge? WOJZILLA! You have a fucking Continental! Where the hell are you to speak up on this?
These cars cannot have a manual transmission. Cannot, because they have a big bench seat, and having to shift gears would cause the problem of having to move the hand that is supposed to be wrapped around (and "accidentally" resting on the cleavage of) that good-looking girl you talked into parking her Sunfire and coming for a ride.
Do I have to teach you people everything? GOD. Kids these days.
10/31/08
10/31/08
10/31/08
10/31/08
They are MORE work than a manual, not less. Don't get me wrong, it may be one of the most enjoyable experiences there is, but it does not prevent you from having to remove your hand from said lovely lady's mammaries.
11/01/08
11/01/08
Anyways, I don't understand the point of getting an automatic without bench seats.
10/31/08
10/31/08
There are many vehicles I would never want a manual transmission in. Sports cars, race cars, most economy cars yes. My truck, daily driven comfort car, no.
Automatics have gotten to the point of being more reliable than a traditional stick and clutch setup and nowadays can even match the fuel mileage.
Only pure fanboyism would ignore the fact that in most cases, an automatic can now do a better job than a manual.
10/31/08
So when you all start talking about "sweet 'snik-snik' double-clutch downshift right into the torque range at the apex of the corner", I fell like a porn-loving eunich. He watches..and knows, with an awful certainty, they're having LOTS of fun, but he...just...can't.
10/31/08
10/31/08
That being said the only place for automatics, for me, is in large luxobarges (Caddy, Imperial, Lincoln, Mercedes S-class, etc) or maybe trucks and SUVs.
10/31/08
Using that floor pedal doesn't make you a better or sportier driver, it is just annoying and if you use it badly, expensive.
For most driving situations (city stop and go & busy freeways) any modern automatic is fine and almost as consumption friendly as a manual.
For sporty driving, a modern sequential gearbox reacts much faster than most people can shift manually.
10/31/08
In day to day driving it doesn't matter.
The point behind a manual is that it's cheaper and more fun.
It also won't kill you the way starting a car with a hand crank can.
10/31/08
but a VAG dual clutch box... they are nice!
10/31/08
10/31/08
I thought long and hard when I ordered it. Three pedals were available (and cheaper!) but 90% of my driving is either in SF Bay Area traffic or on strait interstates at constant speed. I occasionally use the manual mode (steep hills mostly) but I find it frustrating as the shift occurs about half a second after I push or pull the lever...
Oddly enough I've started missing driving a stick since I started ridding my bicycle more: it's only a three speed but changing gears is fun!
I've never tried a DSG though, maybe it is a happy compromise.
10/31/08
But that or a stick shift? my heart is quite torn
When stuck in traffic, a slushbox is great
but when it gets twisty I'd kill for a gate
Many a clutch pedal, it's true I have worn
With so many two-pedal cars on the road
and so few with a clutch now being sold
The day will come, more soon than you know
when no one knows how, the gears they should row
Not even those who are very very old
So when the zombie horde descends on us come revelation
And only an old Chevy stake-bed will be the salvation
But at the last minute, a call emanates out of the crowd
Can anyone drive stick? Don't be shy, don't be proud
Your skill will bring us joy and elation
We need a clutch master
To end this disaster
But sadly that skill has
Gone the way of the Mercury Topaz
And so they'll be eaten, all the faster
But you will escape
Having your brains made like steak
Because you can row gears
Just like ol' Rick Mears
having learned how to do so from books-on-tape
And Darwin will prove right
As the zombies own the night
eating auto-trans users
and sedan-driving losers
While they attempt a gear-crunching flight
So make haste to gain knowledge
Maybe a night class at college
To learn how to operate
A manual transmission before it's too late
Because it's better to live to a ripe old age
If not, zombies just might
come out this all-hollows night
And seek out your gray matter
and your blood they will splatter
But if you can drive a stick, you'll end up alright
10/31/08
10/31/08
Now I've been doing the 7-4 thing for 2+ years and it has improved MANY elements of my life...almost all of it traced back to the pain of a heavy, hydraulic clutch. :D