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Detroit, 8:33 AM
Sun Dec 6
10 posts in the last 24 hours
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11/17/09
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11/17/09
I live in Metro Detroit, everybody I know relies on the auto industry for their livelihood. Everybody. Waitress, bar owner, hockey coach, engineer, marketer, musician, etc. If you do business here, GM, Ford and Chrysler's money are what circulates this economy. They also have R&D, Engineering, Marketing, Design, Finance etc, etc, etc here.
The "auto bailout" was, in my opinion, a disaster. Washington created a housing bubble and it blew up, freezing the credit markets and threatening to completely crash GM and Chrysler. (GM also had exposure to huge mortgage losses through GMAC's ResCap).
As a nominal Republican, I would hope that Washington would decide to get off the auto industry's back, ease regulations, ensure a fair market, and maybe provide temporary tax breaks to get the companies back on track.
Instead, the White House appointed a "czar" who proudly professed knowing jack shit about cars, decapitated GM's leadership, worked on turning GM from a multinational to a domestic automaker in every sense by trying to force sales of the overseas divisions, and had Chrysler enter into a sale with Fiat (who knew full well that Chrysler was told to merge with them or die, how'd you like to be in that negiotiating position?).
Oh yeah, they also gave a large ownership stake in both companies to the UAW, meaning that Ford now has to negiotiate labor contracts with their competitors.
But the future of these companies are a huge problem, especially locally. Michigan is going to slide farther into economic depression. But when I worked at GM, I remember seeing maps of about 10k suppliers, all over the US. The footprint of the companies extends beyond what they themselves own.
Anyways, once the automakers let Washington inside the walls, they became politicized. Republicans (rightly) don't want to spend the money to prop up businesses. They also have a blind hatred of unions (even though the UAW is a fraction of the jobs at stake here). There are also some who want to prop up some foriegn company who has put up an assembly in their district. But they need to offer solutions.
Also - I think there is a distinction between the republican political class here and ordinary people. Foreign cars are still a minority here, but they are far more likely to have decals on them for Democratic candidates than Republicans. Also, the Detroit News published a map of who buys domestics, and red/rural states are more likely to buy them. #gm
11/17/09
Just curious, what would you have done in that situation? #gm
11/17/09
Where's Unregular? #gm
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By the way, I predict that within a couple of decades, this country will be broken up into at least three different, separate countries, if things don't get back to normal soon. There will be the Northeast, and Upper Midwest, anything south of the Mason Dixon Line, and Texas.
Laugh now, but it's a real possibility. #gm
11/17/09
11/17/09
There are a lot of people who didn't attend college that are no less deserving of a living wage, one that provides for their families, one that affords them the ability to pay for a decent place to live, one that pays the utilities, food, and other necessities to live.
At the turn of the century, this country was controlled by a number of robber barons, having the average worker making pennies, slaving away for many hours, in appalling working conditions. You all seem hell bent to return to those good old days, to weaken labor so that companies will pay only the bare minimum and get away with it. #gm
11/17/09
Still, the typical person in this country below the poverty line lives more comfortably than any Roman emperor. I should know, I've spent most of my adult life below it! #gm
11/17/09
a person disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.
Conservatives have been instrumental in trying to stop progression, or to try and "turn back the clock" to anything even remotely progressive.
It is this particular cornerstone that limits a free thinking society, stymies inventiveness, and limits expression.
We no longer are at the forefront of new inventions, new ideas, or new product. You can lay all that on Conservatism. #gm
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OK: Lets take Passenger Airliners, just as an example. I can't deny that Boeing is a formidable competitor, but every Airbus model is far superior than the Boeing competing model. Yes the 787 is modern, but it has taken forever to get out of the gate.
The Brazilian Firm Embraer developed a line of E-Jets that really have no rival. We used to own the Aircraft Industry, and now we are merely a player.
Lets talk Large Trucks: We have two Truck Manufacturers left in the US, PACCAR (Peterbilt, Kenworth) and NAVISTAR (International). The Number one and Number two truck producers in North America is Freightliner (owned by Daimler), and Volvo (Still Swedish Owned, and not connected with the car division owned by Ford) and look at this, they own Mack Truck now! The European Trucks are far more modern and up-to-date than the American ones.
Lets talk Cell Phones for a minute. Motorola used to own the segment, but have been eclpised by Research in Motion (Blackberry), Apple, Nokia, Erickson, Samsung, Sony, with a host of smaller brands following close behind. It really is too little too late with the Droid.
We are no longer dominate in the PC world, what with the sale of IBM's PC business to Lenovo, and almost every other machine built in China. Semiconductor technology has been off loaded to the far east, Software Service has been offloaded to India, and we never did own the flat screen market.
From what I understand,
the Russian mathematicians are superior to almost anyone, The German and Swedish optics are superior to everyone, and the Swiss still make the best chocolate.
We were suppose to be the smartest as far as investment, but that theory got blown out of the water. We were suppose to have the best Insurance Companies (Ha!), and the best Banks (Pffft!). What have we got now? A whole lot of Nothing Special. #gm
11/17/09
We know it does, because you looked up the word "conservative" in the dictionary...
What limits free thinking and inventiveness is artificially rewarding failure and punishing success.
As to your later post about industries, most have some degree of labor issues. Truck and airplane manufacturing are both hammered in the US by unions. For cell phones, Motorola and Apple are US companies. RIM is Canadian. Nice job dismissing the Droid, though.
Same story with PC's and software "service". Intel and AMD are US companies. Their manufacturing is no longer done here. This is because it's too expensive. Same thing with call centers. Are you suggesting it's because conservatives have inflated the cost of labor in the US?? #gm
11/17/09
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These men only respected other property owners, but made no mention of women, or slaves as equal. Don't try an tell me that all of these men were for equal rights among the indigenous tribes that populated this land before we did. They also felt that the Women were somewhat second class citizens, and did nothing to stop the importation of slaves to work for nothing, while being the property of these same property owners.
My argument about free trade is that it has been free trade on a one way street. Japan, Korea, and to some extent most of the rest of the world do not practice our form of free trade, in which we invite anyone to take advantage of our policies, without any consequence to their own trade policies.
And do not bring up the tired argument about our Founding Fathers. If you wanted a government fashioned by the founding fathers, Women still wouldn't be able to vote, we would still have slaves, 1/2% of the population would control 99% of the wealth, and almost no one (besides the descendants of the wealthy white men) would own property.
The argument of out founding fathers holds abut as much water as an almighty god who created earth in seven days. It's time to evolve. #gm
11/17/09
Britain no longer produces things because they believe in free trade? That's your response to my claiming labor is a problem? You might look into the history of labor in the UK. It's labor problems and gov't intervention/bailouts in the US times a thousand.
And who is it that has chosen "not to fight" for the US worker the way, apparently, Korea has?
Your arguments all seem to be my arguments. I.e. Look at industry in Britain. Look at industry here in any unionized sector: autos, trucks, planes, etc. Yet you draw from them completely different, and somewhat baffling, conclusions. #gm
11/17/09
The slavery issue came up many times in the first decades of the new Republic, and was put off for nearly a century to disastrous results. Some of the founding fathers, however, had strong anti-slavery sentiments. From the Revolution to the Civil War, public opinion on the slavery issue did not so much change as become entrenched, on both sides. As for women, they were enfranchised for a time in New Jersey, but very few took the opportunity, nor was there any opposition to speak of when it was taken away with a subsequent state constitution. As for the Natives, simply look at Franklin's Narrative of the Late Massacres.
I'm inclined to agree with you on the fair trade issue. We have ourselves at a disadvantage. We ought have trade restrictions simply to negate support and subsidization of foreign industry by the same foreign governments.
The principles behind the founding of this nation were quite absolute: inalienable God-given rights, sovereignty from the consent of the governed, &t. The government set up by the founding fathers was a compromise. As society has improved and gotten more used to the radical concept of liberty, the compromise has been reduced.
As for God creating the Earth, I suggest you start learning Hebrew. I cringe every time I hear "seven days". (Besides, in the very poor translation that you Christians have, it's SIX days. The seventh is the sabbath, God's gift to us, which we were kind enough to share with you. And don't you forget it!) #gm
11/17/09
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Nanny state policies, handouts, entitlements, strict regulations and spreading the wealth around lead to a passive society.
You have to understand that traditional values aren't all Jeebus, most are building the American Dream, not handing it out. #gm
11/18/09
@Nitrous Oxide: You bet we're pretentious. Our leaders once outvoted God in a debate over cooking apparata!
11/17/09
I thought the WWW was a global thing, however this article clearly indicates for me that you do not value your international readership.
I'm a german petrolhead and have been a daily reader and occasional commenter since 2004. I really loved the site and have recommended it in the past to anyone who wanted to hear it (and several who didn't).
You lost me as a reader today. #gm
11/17/09
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Please don't cut off your nose to spite your face. Reasoned commentary is a relatively rare thing on the www. Ignore the juvenile comments. Those guys have a habit of disappearing. #gm
11/17/09
At least from my perspective all they were trying to do was point out some of the ironic stuff being said by the politicians.
And yes, this is the WWW, and if you really are on it you should get used to the things that go along with it. I don't always agree the stuff which goes on here either, but that's what makes it interesting. If you really want to, you can always make your point put across eloquently (see pauljones). Some might agree, some might not, but that's how it goes.
Anyways, sad to see you go, but hope you do find a site more to your liking. #gm
11/17/09
Around this time, we saw a change in the political party system. The Democrats drifted even further to the left, hawking old ideas from the British Labour party in the 30's. The Republicans began to seek the nation-building, free spending, military-industrial complex encouraging ideas from the Johnson administration. This, combined with free trade, has killed GM and Chrysler.
The Democrats want to save the auto workers, while punishing the companies. Now they have the money to make cars that people want, but relentless pandering by fringe environmentalists prevents them from doing this. Some Republicans see Axis powered car companies as better, just because they aren't controlled by our government. Neither of these positions is right.
I say give them the money, attach a reasonably long schedule to it (20 years or more) and let GM and Chrysler do their thing. Put quotas and tariffs on foreign competition. Break the unions by introducing national right to work laws and eliminate CAFE standards. This is what the Republicans should be pushing for if they still held to their ideals.
I'll tell you one thing, this Republican only drives and buys American. My grandfathers and great uncles fought in WWII. I'm not buying any Axismobiles anytime soon. #gm
11/17/09
And how is that conservatism? Or even Republicanism? If anything it seems to amount to socialism for me. #gm
11/17/09
If you look at successful foreign manufacturers, they are usually in league with their governments. Subsidies and currency manipulation are what we're competing with. Our government rewards business success with more taxes. "windfall profits" are taken away, rather than reinvested during the hungry years.
The loans we gave to GM and Chrysler were short term with strings attached. It's like plugging a hole in a ship in the middle of the Atlantic, only to request the plug, plus most of the hull be given back to you a couple of hours later.
I could also make an argument that Washington has hammered US automakers with pollution regulations, big bumper regulations, CAFE standards and inflationary monetary policy. If cap-and trade becomes law, it will be another needless handicap on our heavy industry. The least they can do is pay them back for all of these crippling policies.
When Charlie Wilson said "What's good for the country is good for GM and vice versa," that sums up Republicanism for me. #gm
11/17/09
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we just need to move imaginary money around in markets and tweet stuff. then, buy stuff that OTHER countries make with our fake money and call it Capitalism.
do that, and America will be great again! #gm
11/17/09
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good for them!
in Capitalism, only a few get all the money and then we take that money and redistribute it to the rest of the people. indeed, it is Capitalism defined. #gm
11/17/09
If Chrysler or GM would not had received their bailout then a few things could have happened. Cerebus Capital, the main owner of Chrysler, would have have been held to account for their crappy investment instead of all of us.
Gm could have gone into Bankruptcy court with a neutral judge to equitably divide the assets based on nearly 200 years of bankruptcy laws. The union contracts would be ripped up and renegotiated. The executive staff would do the same, if not replaced entirely. They would have all the pain behind them by now and be a leaner company. Sure they would have to sell off or shut down brands and lay off workers, nothing that hasn't happened anyways.
Or
It could have gone completely under, all assets liquidated and remaining funds be dispersed first to bondholders, then the rest to debters and if there is any money left the shareholders. Thats the risk you take in the free market. Don't worry, some other entity that has the capital and the will to achieve will come along and capitalize off the mistakes of others.
I never invested in or purchased a GM product for many reasons. Because of the Government I now am forced to suffer the loss.
Instead the Government buys the corporations and completely screws over GM bondholders (bond meaning unbreakable, unless under the iron fist of the state) and shareholders while throwing cake at the unions. Now the Gov't that screwed up Iraq and Kartina is going to make cars, I can't wait.... Amtrack went so well... Did you hear the Chevy Volt gets over 200mpg? Its going to be sweet.
Meanwhile Ford is keeping on trucking. Its amazing how better run companies stick around with less problems. When Ford restructured their debts and consolidated a few years back it was GM execs that were laughing at them. Now Ford is profitable and gets the last laugh, along with my business.
McCain was pro TARP and against the Car industry bailouts, a stark contradiction. At least Obama is consistent in his views on government control of private enterprise. Those that know their history of Benito Mussolini and the Fascismo know the game plan. Its corporatism at its worst. Those that don't know cry foul when the word fascism is used.
All of this is a cover for the real evil, the Federal Reserve bank that fuels all the corporatism and endless wars... Shut it down then we'll have a free market. Free from government domination and freer to succeed and free to fail. We haven't had a free market for a long time, not in my life at least. Lets try it, I know its scary but it is the most successful economic model in world history.
If you don't agree with me then read about the depression of 1920. Its amazing how fast the market can recover without bailouts. #gm
11/17/09
While I am all for restoring classics in general, this is one particular vehicle that should be left to moulder slowly in neglect.
Thank goodness that most people here are sophisticated enough to laugh at such facile xenophobia. Nevertheless, there appear to be substantial numbers of commentators who are enjoying a chance to roll in such excrement and get it all over them. Which is more evidence that the dogs inhabit Jalopnik, and the cats reside at Jezebel.
Well done, Matt! This has to help your hit count! Go Go Gadget Advert Revenue! #gm
11/17/09
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Insult. Insult. Facts would go here if there were any. Insult."
Summarized for you. #gm
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@Matt Hardigree: @Matt Hardigree: "..Also, it's not xenophobia it's extreme nationalism, there's a difference..."
Umm... wait.. you're an 'extreme nationalist'?
Doesn't it give you pause, even just a little, to consider that such was exactly the platform of Hitler's National Socialist Party? Hmm?
Doesn't matter to me in the slightest, really. I am just totally grooving on VW taking over the world. As i said it would. Much to the derision of the assembled masses here. Remember 2 years ago when I told you to buy VW stock?
Did you do it? Heh.... #gm
11/17/09
@Shuke: "..You tell him, Matt..." #gm
11/18/09
11/18/09
"..You tell 'im Matthew!!"
11/17/09
Please, don't do it again. #gm
11/17/09
11/17/09
Not to say that politics and the autoworld aren't permmanently entwined to the point of symbiosis--that's just history--but I think coverage should be bipartisan at least.
End of rant. That is all. I'll shut up about it now. Carry on. Well done. Very good. #gm
11/17/09
The only thing that I'd add is it's ironic that the foreign automakers who would most benefit from the disappearance of GM and Chrysler have received a fair amount of support from their governments. One could even argue that the weakness of the Big Three is partly the result of "socialism" on the part of US economic competitors such as Germany, Japan and South Korea.
In a very real sense the bailouts are helping to level the international playing field.
Not that I'm a big fan of the bailouts in principle and how they have been implemented. But I do think it very strange that conservatives go nuclear over a policy decision approved by Bush that helps protect American interests against those foreign socialist interlopers. #gm
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