You know, I am so sick of this Hydrogen and Plug-In crap. Really.
If you want to spend the money, buy a diesel car, with a manual. Heck, VW sells a wagon like that stateside.
This globar warming crap is ticking me off. To 99% of Americans, what is going to make them buy a car is how much it will cost now and in the future. Hybrids have little resale value after 150,000 miles because the battery needs to be replaced. Now, go check Craigslist and type in TDI. See how much some of those cars are going for and you'll see what I mean.
Fuel cells work due to a very expesnive catalyst: platinum (okay, you can also use paladium, but the fuel cell needs to be bigger). While your car also uses this same material for the catalytic converter, the amount needed for a fuel cell is much higher.
Now, let's talk about infrastructure. How much CO2 emmissions will be required to dig holes for new holding tanks? How much for refridgeration? How much to MAKE hyrdrogen?
Let me remind everyone that, at best, generators are about 30% efficient once you count in transmission losses over the lines (the generator can be upto 50% is somecases, but losses in the transmission lines are almost 50%, especially in the west). Sure, localized pwoer generation is easier to clean and regulate, but is it worth the hassel to completely revamp 100 years of infrasturcture?
I vote no.
/end typing, rant still continuing in my end. Must restrain self...
You're right to hate hydrogen for the complex expensive non-existent inefficient infrastructure, but relax. For years most car makers will make hybrids that have less emissions overall than the hydrogen pipe dream. As battery technology improves you'll have more reason to plug your hybrid in as the cheapest and most efficient way to go the first 5-10-30-... miles before using fossil fuel. (Hydrogen is the wet dream of fossil fuel companies facing that future.)
You're wrong about transmission and distribution losses, DoE says they were 7% in 1995. Power plant generator efficiency is about 35% (more with cogeneration that uses the waste heat), still better than car engines. And people who bring this up never factor in all the inefficiencies and losses of refining gasoline and the gasoline distribution system. You can drive a car further using the electricity it takes to make a gallon of gasoline than you'd travel on the gasoline itself.
@maximum-sienna: Hybrids have little resale value after 150,000 miles because the battery needs to be replaced
No, that's the warranted life for California, most are lasting much longer. When it does need replacement it's a $2300 cost for a Prius (down $700 in 5 years). Meanwhile you've saved about $5000 in gasoline costs (45 vs 30 mpg at $3/gal).
FWIW, KBB prices a 2004 150,000 mile Prius at $8705 in good condition and a Jetta TDi wagon at $8205 in fart-sniffing California.
"But don't get too excited. Like other hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, availability will likely be extremely limited and be restricted to regions with the greatest number of hydrogen filling stations. It's also reasonable to assume that, due to the high cost of the technology, the B-Class F-CELL will only be available on very limited leases and at stupidly high lease prices."
@Feds: Legitimate question. A lot of commercial hydrogen generation involves cracking it out of coal-sourced methane.
Now, electrolyzing it from seawater seems as environmentally benign as harnessing unicorn farts until you look at how to go about the electrolysis. And that electricity has to come from somewhere. Sometimes from coal-powered plants, which brings coal back into the equation, or from nukes, which brings Yucca Mountain onstage. It's all fun and games until the check comes.
And even then, the efficiency of energy in as electricity vs. energy out as hydrogen is pretty poor. Better to run the car on long extension cords.
@Elhigh: Wireless energy transfer is what is needed instead of extension cords. Telsa towers could be installed every 50 ft along every road to power autos. It would all be paid for with free money from the Federal Reserve.
A fuel cell can also be designed to utilize gasoline, propane, alcohol, natural gas, and diesel. This would seem to me to be far more practical. We have an infrastructure for those fuels, plus there isn’t the worry of turning into a completely frozen organ casing, when that hydrogen fuel valve or hose inevitably fails.
@pauljones: The equivalent of 3.3 liters (of diesel? How does that make a difference?) per 100km, or about 71mpg (of diesel!). It says it has about 400km range, which is only about 250mi - so it carries the equivalent of only 3.5 gallons of fuel (diesel!).
Paring some junk off and fitting a nice small turbodiesel might yield approximately the same fuel economy, and leave room for a tank with sufficient capacity for up to 400 miles. Six gallons (of diesel!) ought to do it.
@Ash78: Seriously. I think that two of them are actually in that area.
@Elhigh: There was a great deal of sarcasm in my comment, but if you want to get pedantic about it, it really doesn't matter how you look at, whether it be from an mpg standpoint or a range standpoint, as it's all just different methods of providing approximate measures of the same damn thing: will it get me to the next hydrogen filling station?
@pauljones: As it currently stands, probably not. Unless you're one of the lucky treehugging filthy rich hippies with the scratch and location to actually jump on this. The vast majority of us - myself most definitely included - are not.
I'd strongly prefer a Civic Diesel. Oops! There's that darn location issue again.
@mr_dude: Here's the Google map of Ahnold's hydrogen highway: [www.cafcp.org]
Sadly, it reports: Operational (23) Planned (11) Decommissioned (10).
Also, to get a 100% fill-up the process takes longer and/or the station costs more because of the higher pressure required to force the H2 in. I don't know how many of these stations use which systems.
There's an extremely incomplete EV charging map at [evauthority.com] , it lists none of the 5 recharging points I've seen in garages.
@Wes Siler: Are you sure about that? If you have an ICE running on pure H2, isn't the exhaust just water vapor? Get the combustion temps too high and you wind up with nitrogen oxides, but if there's no hydrocarbon going in, there shouldn't be any CO2 coming out.
Wes is right however. This is a hypothetically perfect reaction. There always impurities present(engines require oil). It is far cleaner than burning gasoline, but it is not perfectly clean.
@Buzzboy7: Hydrogen fuel cells are way greener than an engine that combusts Hydrogen. Plus, think of this as more of a real world prototype or extended testing because I bet these won't be sold outright.
@Buzzboy7: Several valid reasons and all are directly connected with hydrogen.
The excessive amount of energy it takes to make it through either chemical or electrical processes.
Bulky. A given volume of hydrogen in a liquid form takes up roughly twice the space in equivalent volume of LPG or LNG.
The logistics involved in managing this kind of fuel to a consumer standpoint is still way to expensive.
Any tank made in this day and age leaks hydrogen. The hydrogen molecules, which are smaller than the materials used to make the tanks, simply slip past the covalent bonds.
Its so hellfire hazardous if it ignites. Unlike gasoline or diesel, hydrogen ignites with a bang once it mixes with a oxidizer and exposed to an ignition point.
@Maymar may have abused the approve comment button: And in America, it's Mercedes' mentally deranged youngest child that lives in the closet under the stairs and never comes out for fear of ruining the family name. But now that he's environmentally friendly, we get to meet him.
Old hat. Allis-Chalmers (I bleed orange) did it back in '59.
Fiat can eat it.
Hey, for those of you who didn't know, Porsche cranked out a 1-,2-,3-, and 4-cylinder volksschlepper back in the day. So cars and tractors do sorta mix.
@Elhigh: ...and to muddy the waters a tad, Fiat bought most of Allis for a while and you could have your Allis tractor but it was a FIAT-Allis. Then FIAT sold its stake to Deutz and you could have a Deutz-Allis. Then Allis bought its own stake back, bought up everybody else that was dangling: Hesston, Massey-Ferguson, NASA - and now you can have an AGCO Allis, which is hella awesome. Those AGCO tractors are Murrican, fellas.
08/28/09
Or are they using the Li-ion battery to power the hot plate?
08/28/09
If you want to spend the money, buy a diesel car, with a manual. Heck, VW sells a wagon like that stateside.
This globar warming crap is ticking me off. To 99% of Americans, what is going to make them buy a car is how much it will cost now and in the future. Hybrids have little resale value after 150,000 miles because the battery needs to be replaced. Now, go check Craigslist and type in TDI. See how much some of those cars are going for and you'll see what I mean.
Fuel cells work due to a very expesnive catalyst: platinum (okay, you can also use paladium, but the fuel cell needs to be bigger). While your car also uses this same material for the catalytic converter, the amount needed for a fuel cell is much higher.
Now, let's talk about infrastructure. How much CO2 emmissions will be required to dig holes for new holding tanks? How much for refridgeration? How much to MAKE hyrdrogen?
Let me remind everyone that, at best, generators are about 30% efficient once you count in transmission losses over the lines (the generator can be upto 50% is somecases, but losses in the transmission lines are almost 50%, especially in the west). Sure, localized pwoer generation is easier to clean and regulate, but is it worth the hassel to completely revamp 100 years of infrasturcture?
I vote no.
/end typing, rant still continuing in my end. Must restrain self...
08/28/09
You're right to hate hydrogen for the complex expensive non-existent inefficient infrastructure, but relax. For years most car makers will make hybrids that have less emissions overall than the hydrogen pipe dream. As battery technology improves you'll have more reason to plug your hybrid in as the cheapest and most efficient way to go the first 5-10-30-... miles before using fossil fuel. (Hydrogen is the wet dream of fossil fuel companies facing that future.)
You're wrong about transmission and distribution losses, DoE says they were 7% in 1995. Power plant generator efficiency is about 35% (more with cogeneration that uses the waste heat), still better than car engines. And people who bring this up never factor in all the inefficiencies and losses of refining gasoline and the gasoline distribution system. You can drive a car further using the electricity it takes to make a gallon of gasoline than you'd travel on the gasoline itself.
08/28/09
No, that's the warranted life for California, most are lasting much longer. When it does need replacement it's a $2300 cost for a Prius (down $700 in 5 years). Meanwhile you've saved about $5000 in gasoline costs (45 vs 30 mpg at $3/gal).
FWIW, KBB prices a 2004 150,000 mile Prius at $8705 in good condition and a Jetta TDi wagon at $8205 in fart-sniffing California.
08/28/09
08/28/09
The Civic Kid demands justice!
08/28/09
Fixed.
08/28/09
08/28/09
...Must...Not...Feed...Troll...Must...Not...Tell
...To...Turn...Off...AM...Radio...And
...Read...Book...And...Or...Peer...Reviewed
...Scientific...Journal...
08/28/09
08/28/09
08/28/09
There sure have been a lot of nasty personal attacks around here lately.
08/28/09
08/28/09
Now, electrolyzing it from seawater seems as environmentally benign as harnessing unicorn farts until you look at how to go about the electrolysis. And that electricity has to come from somewhere. Sometimes from coal-powered plants, which brings coal back into the equation, or from nukes, which brings Yucca Mountain onstage. It's all fun and games until the check comes.
And even then, the efficiency of energy in as electricity vs. energy out as hydrogen is pretty poor. Better to run the car on long extension cords.
08/28/09
@Elhigh: Wireless energy transfer is what is needed instead of extension cords. Telsa towers could be installed every 50 ft along every road to power autos. It would all be paid for with free money from the Federal Reserve.
08/28/09
08/28/09
08/29/09
08/28/09
08/28/09
"Who's the chicken now?" said the egg expectantly.
08/28/09
No local emissions. Excellent. So we're outsourcing our industrial farts too, now?
08/28/09
08/28/09
08/28/09
08/28/09
Paring some junk off and fitting a nice small turbodiesel might yield approximately the same fuel economy, and leave room for a tank with sufficient capacity for up to 400 miles. Six gallons (of diesel!) ought to do it.
08/28/09
@Elhigh: There was a great deal of sarcasm in my comment, but if you want to get pedantic about it, it really doesn't matter how you look at, whether it be from an mpg standpoint or a range standpoint, as it's all just different methods of providing approximate measures of the same damn thing: will it get me to the next hydrogen filling station?
08/28/09
You'd do just fine for stations if you stayed in LA. I'm surprised there's no google map pointing them all out.
08/28/09
I'd strongly prefer a Civic Diesel. Oops! There's that darn location issue again.
08/28/09
[www.cafcp.org]
Sadly, it reports: Operational (23) Planned (11) Decommissioned (10).
Also, to get a 100% fill-up the process takes longer and/or the station costs more because of the higher pressure required to force the H2 in. I don't know how many of these stations use which systems.
There's an extremely incomplete EV charging map at [evauthority.com] , it lists none of the 5 recharging points I've seen in garages.
08/28/09
08/28/09
Er...you may want to fix that.
08/28/09
08/28/09
/couldn't resist
08/28/09
08/28/09
Wes is right however. This is a hypothetically perfect reaction. There always impurities present(engines require oil). It is far cleaner than burning gasoline, but it is not perfectly clean.
08/28/09
08/28/09
08/28/09
08/28/09
Have you met their unobtainium live axle metallurgist as well?
08/28/09
08/28/09
08/28/09
08/28/09
08/28/09
The excessive amount of energy it takes to make it through either chemical or electrical processes.
Bulky. A given volume of hydrogen in a liquid form takes up roughly twice the space in equivalent volume of LPG or LNG.
The logistics involved in managing this kind of fuel to a consumer standpoint is still way to expensive.
Any tank made in this day and age leaks hydrogen. The hydrogen molecules, which are smaller than the materials used to make the tanks, simply slip past the covalent bonds.
Its so hellfire hazardous if it ignites. Unlike gasoline or diesel, hydrogen ignites with a bang once it mixes with a oxidizer and exposed to an ignition point.
08/28/09
08/28/09
08/28/09
08/28/09
02/23/09
Fiat can eat it.
Hey, for those of you who didn't know, Porsche cranked out a 1-,2-,3-, and 4-cylinder volksschlepper back in the day. So cars and tractors do sorta mix.
02/23/09
02/23/09