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Honda Axes Diesels For Large Car, Favors Hybrids Instead
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DoctorNine
04/06/09

In reply to Honda Axes Diesels For Large Car, Favors Hybrids Instead
Wow. Late to the game. Another example of Honda messing up.

I guess they lost the thread after abandoning performance Acuras.

Petroleum based gasoline isn't going to be around much longer.

Can't grow it. We can grow biodiesel.

Time to punch babies.

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Ford Tempo Fanatic
04/06/09

In reply to Honda Axes Diesels For Large Car, Favors Hybrids Instead
I am sure I'm not the only person here would would take a good old diesel over a hybrid or electric car any day. So of course, this news fills my heart with sadness. However this is silver lining in the big dark cloud that is called the auto industry.

Ford Tempo ladies and gentlemen. Ford Tempo.
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rocor
04/06/09

In reply to Honda Axes Diesels For Large Car, Favors Hybrids Instead
Sorry I am not keeping up with this, what fuel is it that Honda are promoting this week? The last I read was all future Honda cars were to be Fuel cell electric, with a Honda provided hydrogen conversion plant installed in your garage, and a ASIMO to pump it into your car.

I might have made that last bit up.
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OldeEnglishD
04/06/09

@rocor: This week it's Unicorn farts, next week it's Fairy Dust. Please refer to your Honda Fuel Schedule Pages 3-6 for future plans.
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Novaload
04/06/09

In reply to Honda Axes Diesels For Large Car, Favors Hybrids Instead
Honda's not really thinking about the environment so much as the bottom line and what's going to be selling well. Americans are scared of diesels, therefore no diesels.

(Note: This will be a very unpopular view) No matter what you do, no matter how healthily you live, and what great care you take of yourself, you are going to die, possibly even very soon by accident!

And what is true of humans is also true of planets. So about the time everyone is green and solar and whatever else is available then, a meteor will knock us sideways into Mars.

That's just the way the universe works.
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MushyHeirloom
04/06/09

In reply to Honda Axes Diesels For Large Car, Favors Hybrids Instead
Today, Honda was faced with a decision. "Should we become Volkswagen, or should we become Toyota?"

I think you can figure out which choice they made, and it's a goddamn shame.
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Hello Mister Walrus
04/06/09

In reply to Honda Axes Diesels For Large Car, Favors Hybrids Instead
Well, the thing about diesels is there is not a lot of room to develop the technology. Maybe you'd eventually get twice the gas mileage of a normal gas engine, but that's about it. Hybrids are a bridge into electric cars, which will probably be a majority of cars within our lifetimes.

Sure, it might suck now, but Honda needs to make the best business decision. Maybe if they had lots of cash to spare, they could invest in both technologies. Unfortunately, that is just not the case.
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Ash78, cube farmer
04/06/09

In reply to Honda Axes Diesels For Large Car, Favors Hybrids Instead
There are some good arguments for diesel, many of which are not superficially obvious in the face of high diesel fuel prices.

There are good arguments for hybrids, most of which are superficially slam dunks.

My universal, objective disappointment at this has nothing to do with feeling that diesel is 100% superior to hybrids. It is not.

It's that Honda and Toyota are now BOTH contributing to the eventual popular notion that hybrids are the ONLY alternative solution at the moment. This notion makes marketing and demand planning a lot easier, sure. But it's still disappointing when you consider that Honda's diesels are so well regarded.

At the moment, I'm 90% certain that passenger diesel will be dead in the US within 5 years, barring any massive (probably artificial) change in diesel fuel prices.
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A strolling player
04/06/09

In reply to Honda Axes Diesels For Large Car, Favors Hybrids Instead
Preface: my opinion is going to be unpopular here.

Making cleaner diesel engines (which are still nowhere near as clean as their gasoline counterparts) to meet our emissions standards is a very difficult process. Even Volkswagen, the most stubborn US-market diesel car manufacturer, had to take a year off from selling TDI models here in order to develop an engine that would run properly on ultra-low-sulfur diesel. Thousands of refineries are still in the middle of changing their processes over to the ULSD in a quite long and expensive process; this is why diesel prices are currently high.

Bothering with piss-injection and all that is kind of a ridiculous measure to make diesels road-legal this side of the pond. Let me remind you that hybrids make gobs of torque, too, especially if they're using full-hybrid systems (everyone but Honda) instead of assist-only. The outgoing Prius makes over 300 lb-ft combined at very low revs.

They can tow if they're designed to (cf. Tahoe Hybrid, etc.). They get comparable mileage to diesels at a similar premium (diesels are often a number of thousands of dollars more expensive than their gasoline counterparts, remember). On top of this, their emissions are way, way cleaner, and this pleases CARB and the EPA, which is the only way to be allowed onto our market.
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aSoundofSleep-less nights
04/06/09

@A strolling player is: Gold Member!:

But I still want the option of how I'm going to eventually kill the enviroment. Batteries or diesel emissions.
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A strolling player
04/06/09

@aSoundofSleep says don't drink and Jalop: The batteries are almost entirely recycled. The diesel emissions, well, aren't.
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Tyson
04/06/09

@A strolling player is: Gold Member!: I think a big part of the problem with hybrids (and why people around here don't like them) is that all we've really seen hybridized are the Prius and a few other midsize (boring) sedans, and things like the Tahoe Hybrid that nobody buys. If Honda does go turn every vehicle they build into a hybrid, it would probably better show off how a hybrid system can help with things like low-end torque and drivability.
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Pessimippopotamus
04/06/09

@aSoundofSleep says don't drink and Jalop: Both are too slow. I suggest Twin Turbo V12.
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A strolling player
04/06/09

@Tyson: If the '10 Prius handles as well as Wes says it does, their perception among the enthusiast crowd should (not necessarily will, but should) better itself. Remember, an MGB takes three seconds longer to get to 60--and that's the UK non-malaisey version--but its handling makes it the great car it is. If a Prius can be engaging to drive, and apparently it is, massive low-end torque will only make it better.

I'd expect even better from Honda, but for now, the Insight and Civic Hybrid are just okay.
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Turbineguy - now with reheat!!
04/06/09

@A strolling player is: Gold Member!: The price of diesel didn't go up until well after the 2006 ULSD phase-in. Therefore, it has little to do with the current price of diesel. VW's TDI doesn't need urea injection to pass T2B5 standards, that's a requirement for heavier cars like the 335d and E320 Bluetec. From what I've read, by some metrics clean diesels have lower emissions than gassers.
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A strolling player
04/06/09

@Turbineguy: ULSD became a requirement in '07, I believe. It's both that and the increased European demand. VW's TDI does have to meet the same standards as the BlueTecs, but they took a different approach to the same problem.

CO emissions are linked directly to fuel economy, so diesels do slightly better in this regard; however, NOx emissions are far more detrimental to health, and diesels are very not good in this regard.
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philipmein
04/06/09

@A strolling player is: Gold Member!: 40mpg gas is going to be cleaner than 40mpg diesel but what about 60mpg diesel? That's what diesel proponents are promising: less emissions per miles driven.

I'd love to see what a hybrid sports car would be like but so far the only true hybrids are the eco standard bearers.
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A strolling player
04/06/09

@philipmein: Still gonna be worse. The best diesels emit twice as much NOx as an equivalent gas engine, so unless it's an over-80mpg diesel vs. a 40mpg gas engine it's going to be worse, and at that point we aren't really in the same segment.
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Six Flags Over Tomsk
04/06/09

@A strolling player is: Gold Member!: You can't run a Prius on algae.

That is all.
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A strolling player
04/07/09

@Upgrade to Tomsk Diamond today!: You can run it on poo!
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Pessimippopotamus
04/06/09

In reply to Honda Axes Diesels For Large Car, Favors Hybrids Instead
I've just realize Honda has... nothing.

No NSX. No F1. And Acuras are Gorgons of the automotive world.
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If FromaBuick6 has to watch one more Chevy commercial, he's going to punch Howie Long in the face
04/06/09

In reply to Honda Axes Diesels For Large Car, Favors Hybrids Instead
Yet another reason why I wont be buying another Honda anytime soon.
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Ford Tempo Fanatic
04/06/09

@FromaBuick6: Seconded. So lets all go buy old diesel Caprices and Tempos. Is it just me, or is it the strangest cars that get diesel? Even today, Jeep of all automakers offers diesel power. You'd figure it would be the small compact cars offering diesel engines as options for the people who can't afford a hybrid.
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Alfisted
04/06/09

In reply to Honda Axes Diesels For Large Car, Favors Hybrids Instead
I receive this news with an element of disappointment, as a diesel car would be a better fit for me. I wish our government officials would do their civic duty and reach an accord on less restrictrive regulations governing diesel fuel and vehicles. Promulgating rules that discourage auto manufacturers from offering diesel cars in the U.S. demonstrates to me that said officials lack insight into what the populace wants.
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engineerd
04/06/09

@Alfisted: The major problem is states like CA, NY, MA who try to Pilot emissions regulations, but wind up with poorly planned regulations which lack Clarity. States need to realize that their affect on the entire country may cause a technology that will Fit with the needs of the majority to be excluded because manufacturers will not be able to sell enough. On our Odyssey to get diesel accepted as a viable engine choice in the US, we need to convince the few that this is better for the many. We need to convince places like California that, while having things like the CR-V on pop bottles does not limit choice in the marketplace, having overly restrictive regulations on diesel winds up by hurting the overall choice. The federal government can also help by lowering diesel taxes so it is price competitive with gasoline.

We also need to convince people that diesel engines are much more "green" than hybrids, provide superior mileage, and the emissions are very clean even without exotic aftertreatment systems due to the switch to ULSD.
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A strolling player
04/06/09

@Alfisted: CARB and EPA have been attempting to pilot the market into cleaner emissions since the '70s, and I find it a reasonable effort. Hybrids really struck a beat with the American market--it has to be understood that they'll sell a lot more of them. There's a huge ridgeline separating the European and American markets, and withholding the diesel's passport to cross the sea is the prelude to increased rural and civic hybrid sales.
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A strolling player
04/06/09

@engineerd: Goddamn you.
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Leeeeena the Jalopchick
04/06/09

@engineerd: @A strolling player is: Gold Member!: Lol! I nominate you jointly for COTD.
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Alfisted
04/06/09

@engineerd: @A strolling player is: Gold Member!: A round of applause gentlemen. It's like a douchebag-free version of Hannity and Colmes.
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engineerd
04/06/09

@Alfisted: We did all combine forces for that one.

I'm going to go watch some Thundercats now.
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JDickson87
04/06/09

@A strolling player is: Gold Member!: You Beat me to the original point, but I would suggest that the problem is a lack of Insight on the behalf of our Civic leadership. There is an Element of ignorance that turns their well intentioned Pilot programs into a series of bad decisions that lead to a poor outcome for every party involved. Due to the lack of Clarity in current regulations (honestly, where does the CR-V fall in CAFE?) that can't decide where we should go next- gas, diesel, hybrid, electric, fuel cell- diesel has been abandoned on a rocky Ridgeline. According to my thinking, diesel would be a good Fit for American drivers- we love torque. Indecision in the past, and current indecision, is leading us on a long, twisted Odyssey that will make determining the future of the car more difficult. Don't get me wrong- I love cars! The S2000 is a fun car which I would love to drive, but the gasoline engine can't carry on forever.

Ok, now that that's done, I do wonder if the problem was torque. Too much of it! Honda, as a company, wants to make engines that produce as little torque as possible.

Oh, and thank god we didn't have to do this game with Acura names. That would just be lame.
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A strolling player
04/06/09

@jdickson87: Though most people aren't fans of Acura's front-end styling, some people still think they RSXy.

...I think you're right. Acura's design was never legendary, and while their cars exhibit a certain vigor, the integration of alphanumeric names doesn't help anything.
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Leeeeena the Jalopchick
04/06/09

@A strolling player is: Gold Member!: You're on fire today!
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A strolling player
04/06/09

@Leeeeena the Jalopchick: Well, I would say the NSX is a legend, but that's the wrong Acura, anyway.
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Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet
04/06/09

In reply to Honda Axes Diesels For Large Car, Favors Hybrids Instead
Honda made a big bet on hybrids, so they have to defend that. The diesel is like an add-on product that'd be nice if it proves feasible to move it into the supply chain.

Big problem for supplying efficient cars is that so many shoppers make their decisions based on the price of fuel today. Diesel prices are very volatile, now reflect low-sulfur fuels, and at the mercy of refiner's decisions, as well as government tax rates. Diesel used to be pretty cheap nearly everywhere - which was cool, since it has more energy value per gallon than gasoline. Now, Diesel's generally a good bit more expensive than gas. So this evens out diesel's generally perceived advantage.
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sos10
04/06/09

In reply to Honda Axes Diesels For Large Car, Favors Hybrids Instead
If you can stick the same hybrid motor and tech to any gas engine they're already producing, obviously by tweaking them, it could well be much easier, cheaper and faster than developing various new Diesel engines.

Besides the fact that Diesel fuel will become less attractive when oil rates will go up again, which is rather likely to happen since the amount of available oil has to serve more and more people.
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Novaload
04/06/09

@sos10: Except, of course, for those around the world already grounded by Financialypse who have lost their cars or the jobs that bought gas for their cars--so on the bright side, demand might actually decrease!
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AngryChineseDriver hates four-wheeled fatties!
04/06/09

In reply to Honda Axes Diesels For Large Car, Favors Hybrids Instead
On the bright side, another reason to stick with Audi!
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Leeeeena the Jalopchick
04/06/09

@AngryChineseDriver: Huh? I thought angry Chinese drivers drove BMWs.
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Leeeeena the Jalopchick
04/06/09

@Leeeeena the Jalopchick: Actually, on second thought, it's just the angry 20-something Asian males who drive BMWs, mostly M3s, like a bunch of douchebags. Angry older Chinese women drive Mercedes at 40 mph with the left blinker on while haranguing their children over the phone and telling their daughters they'll never get married.

/racism
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How Wankelin' Got His Sig Back
04/06/09

@Leeeeena the Jalopchick: I dunno. Which can be converted to hold more drycleaning? The A6 Wagon or the BMW 3-series wagon?
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Leeeeena the Jalopchick
04/06/09

@Wankelin' For A Rotary: I think you might want to reconsider which quad-ring goes against which roundel - the A4 Avant vs. the 3-series wagon, or the A6 Avant vs. the 5-series is a more appropriate comparison, in my eyes. I can't answer your question anyway though, sorry.
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Six Flags Over Tomsk
04/06/09

@Leeeeena the Jalopchick: To paraphrase the late, great Raul Julia: "First rule of Chinese driving: What's around me is not important!"
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Lost in the age of Aerostar
04/06/09

In reply to Honda Axes Diesels For Large Car, Favors Hybrids Instead
I read the headline, read the story, and then wanted to blind my eyes due to such a decision that caters to those who think hybrids are the only solution.

Thankfully, Willy, the "don't stare directly into the sun" worm taught me better.
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Leeeeena the Jalopchick
04/06/09

@Lost in the age of Aerostar: Unfortunately, I chose to go with Oinky, the Run Around with Scissors Pig, so I wound up blinding myself by mistake. I'll still blame it on Honduh, though.
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