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Detroit, 4:20 PM
Wed Dec 9
25 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of Jes St.Lawrence Jes St.Lawrence
    11/18/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    "but when you leave out an obvious weight driver the whole affair is suspect."

    I read that as "but when you leave out the obvious driver weight, the whole affair is suspect."
     Reply
    Jes St.Lawrence was starred Jes St.Lawrence was unstarred
    Image of DrLemming DrLemming
    11/18/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    I'm a live-and-let-live kind of guy. If other folks want more horsepower, they should have it if they want to pay for it. What bothers me is that today there is a much lower selection of high-mileage cars than even in the early 1990s. For example, I'd like to see a contemporary replacement for my 1991 Honda Civic wagon. It doesn't exist.

    I either have to move down market to a much smaller Fit, or up to a CRV.

    I don't want to do either. Nor is the lower gas mileage of a Matrix or Impreza very appealing despite the added safety features over my 1991 Civic. Nor do I want the added weight and complexity of a Prius.

    I also don't need all of the supposedly "must-have" bells and whistles such as power windows. Give me something light, simple and versatile with gas mileage at least in the mid-30s -- without having to switch to a hybrid.

    Please? #fueleconomy
     Reply
    DrLemming was starred DrLemming was unstarred
    Image of gunluva is prepared to drop. gunluva is prepared to drop.
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    That picture is the car the Boomer from L4D drives. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    gunluva is prepared to drop. was starred gunluva is prepared to drop. was unstarred
    Image of FTGDWolverineEdition'09 FTGDWolverineEdition'09
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates

    Sorry, I am more interested in this. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    FTGDWolverineEdition'09 was starred FTGDWolverineEdition'09 was unstarred
    Image of FTGDWolverineEdition'09 FTGDWolverineEdition'09
    11/17/09

    @FTGDWolverineEdition'09: And it still amazes me we could do this while improving FE. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    FTGDWolverineEdition'09 was starred FTGDWolverineEdition'09 was unstarred
    Image of 6Buck 6Buck
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    Bad science and poor presentation still makes for a great excuse for a Caterham 7. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    area_educator promoted this comment 6Buck was starred 6Buck was unstarred
    Image of duurtlang duurtlang
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    Obviously the author is right that if we put 2009 engines/drivetrains in 1980 cars fuel economy would improve more than it did in the last 29 years. If you add the increased aerodynamics the change would even be more dramatic. But apparently that's not what consumers want. And consumers get what they want. Capitalism you know. Apparently the 15% improvement over the last 29 years was enough for them. If you were to argue that it isn't enough the only thing to do is to increase fuel prices *ducks and runs*

    What I don't get are the differences in lineup between Europe and the US. In Europe you can get 5-10 different engines per popular model. Like the Opel Insignia. Some slow and frugal, others fast and thirsty. So consumers can choose. From reading this site I get the impression the (relatively) slow and frugal engines aren't even available in the US, so consumers have less to choose from. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    area_educator promoted this comment duurtlang was starred duurtlang was unstarred
    Image of area_educator area_educator
    11/17/09

    @duurtlang: "Obviously the author is right that if we put 2009 engines/drivetrains in 1980 cars "

    New hobby! #fueleconomy
     Reply
    area_educator was starred area_educator was unstarred
    Image of duurtlang duurtlang
    11/17/09

    @area_educator:
    I've been thinking about doing just that for a long time. Buying an early eighties/late seventies Citroën with a deceased engine, and replacing that engine with something very recent with 150% of the power and 75% of fuel consumption. Too bad my wrenching experience doesn't go much further than changing fluids, and my toolbox doesn't contain much more than a hammer. Luckily there's nothing you cannot fix with a hammer. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    duurtlang was starred duurtlang was unstarred
    Image of Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est
    11/17/09

    @duurtlang: Yeah, there isn't really any choice here. The few cars that are available here usually only come with one engine, sometimes with one or two options available. I can't quite fathom why, except that consumers don't really understand what they need from their cars.

    Also, because gas is so cheap that it doesn't make any sense to buy an efficient vehicle. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est was starred Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est was unstarred
    Image of Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est
    11/17/09

    @duurtlang: A Citroën CX with the low output Mazda RX-8 engine would be awesome. I don't know that it would save you any gas, though... #fueleconomy
     Reply
    Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est was starred Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est was unstarred
    Image of maximum-sienna maximum-sienna
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    Holy crappy technical writing batman. NEVER use "I" in technical writing.

    Also, "Honda is the most efficient manufacturer for both passenger cars." Really? Both passenger cars?

    UBER FAIL #fueleconomy
     Reply
    pauljones promoted this comment maximum-sienna was starred maximum-sienna was unstarred
    Image of pauljones pauljones
    11/17/09

    @maximum-sienna: I just noticed that.

    That was just absolutely egregious, and really makes me think that the guy is truly just talking out of his ass in an utterly biased way.

    I mean, seriously; you never use the first person in any professional paper. Isn't that the first thing that we learned inn 8th grade English class? #fueleconomy
     Reply
    pauljones was starred pauljones was unstarred
    Image of Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est
    11/17/09

    @pauljones: Not that I don't think that the author missed a few things, but that was the abstract, not the paper itself. This concerns the author's motivations and one almost have to use "I". #fueleconomy
     Reply
    Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est was starred Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est was unstarred
    Image of HammSammich HammSammich
    11/17/09

    @Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est: " I also find that once technological progress is considered, meeting the CAFE standards..."

    How about:

    "It can also be shown that once technological progress is considered, meeting the CAFE Standards..."

    or

    "This paper also identifies that once technological progress..."

    Using the first person, even in an abstract, has a sophomoric feel to it. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    ThreeLitre promoted this comment HammSammich was starred HammSammich was unstarred
    Image of ThreeLitre ThreeLitre
    11/17/09

    @HammSammich: Bravo for correct use and spelling of the word 'sophomoric." Bravo. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    ThreeLitre was starred ThreeLitre was unstarred
    Image of JanDuKretijn JanDuKretijn
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    My 100hp 2004 Golf TDI gets 40mpg. My mom's new 140hp 2009 Jetta TDI gets 40mpg. As a consumer, I'd have preferred a 100hp 2009 Jetta that gets even more than 40mpg.

    Americans are far too worried about 0-60 times and "merging on the highway". When's the last time anyone needed to go 0-60 in 4.5 seconds? #fueleconomy
     Reply
    BigHarv promoted this comment JanDuKretijn was starred JanDuKretijn was unstarred
    Image of jip1080 jip1080
    11/17/09

    @JanDuKretijn: This morning. Next question? #fueleconomy
     Reply
    BigHarv promoted this comment jip1080 was starred jip1080 was unstarred
    Image of Heavern2 Heavern2
    11/17/09

    @JanDuKretijn: You do score a lot of Jalop points for the TDI. I'm guessing they are stick too. Bonus points if your golf is only 2 doors.

    However, let me ask you this: Would you rather have that 100hp jetta with 40+ mpg, and a cup of coffee to stay awake, or 200hp, 35mpg, and a lot of fun? #fueleconomy
     Reply
    area_educator promoted this comment Heavern2 was starred Heavern2 was unstarred
    Image of BigHarv BigHarv
    11/17/09

    @JanDuKretijn: You're talking about getting to 60 in over or under 10 seconds with those cars, not 5. And don't confuse an acceleration metric for a real world test. 0-60 times are used to compare cars, to give people an idea of what the acceleration of the vehicle is, not because it's a common thing to do. Car and Driver also times 30-50 mph times and other acceleration metrics to give a complete picture, especially in real world conditions. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    BigHarv was starred BigHarv was unstarred
    Image of pres pres
    11/17/09

    @JanDuKretijn: Regardless, they're both needlessly complex piles of German over-engineering that are nearly impossible to work on without $4,000 worth of specialty tools. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    pres was starred pres was unstarred
    Image of BigHarv BigHarv
    11/17/09

    @jip1080: Bwahaha #fueleconomy
     Reply
    BigHarv was starred BigHarv was unstarred
    Image of Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est
    11/17/09

    @Heavern2: I just can't understand why every one seems to think that more HP = more fun?

    I'm not saying HPs are not a pleasure, but there are so many other important variables. Light weight is almost always more important to driving enjoyment. It's not even going fast (in absolute terms) that's pleasurable, it's going fast in terms of the vehicle. More power than the chassis can handle, now that is fun! I assure you that the driver of a 35hp A-H Sprite is always grinning a lot more than someone in a 500hp übermobile with 19 inch wheels and electronics galore.

    And, since traffic can accomodate lumbering buses and trucks, a merge in a well-driven Citroën 2CV is rarely a problem. The problem is the idiot in the AMG ML55 that won't use the go-pedal and is attempting to merge at 30mph lower than traffic.
     Reply
    Edited by Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est at 11/17/09 2:04 PM Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est was starred Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est was unstarred
    Image of bmoreDLJ bmoreDLJ
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates

    If it weren't for the Porsche badge, I'd say a Mustang Mach III had a terrible reaction...possibly to production greenlights. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    bmoreDLJ was starred bmoreDLJ was unstarred
    Image of jeepfreak jeepfreak
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    A 1957 Chevrolet weighs in at 3269 lbs, a Honda CIVIC (smaller car) weighs in at only 400 lbs less (2806 lbs) a Toyota Camry weighs in HEAVIER then a 1957 Chevrolet (3307 lbs).

    Whats funnier yet is many of those cars don't weigh much more (some even less; see example above) than the current cars after you add the frilly heated seats, nav systems, stereos, airbags, power this and that.

    People forget all those 'luxuries' and mandated safety items add weight and decrease gas mileage.
     Reply
    Edited by jeepfreak at 11/17/09 11:27 AM jeepfreak was starred jeepfreak was unstarred
    Image of JanDuKretijn JanDuKretijn
    11/17/09

    @jeepfreak: THAN THAN THAN, Goddammit. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    BigHarv promoted this comment JanDuKretijn was starred JanDuKretijn was unstarred
    Image of Ben Wojdyla Ben Wojdyla
    11/17/09

    @jeepfreak: Those things certainly add weight, but the bulk of the heft comes in the structure and safety systems. Take this crash for instance between a '59 Bel Air (which quite fairly represents you're '57) and a 2009 Malibu.

    According to the IIHS, the driver of the Bel Air would've died instantly. The Malibu driver would've walked away. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    Ben Wojdyla was starred Ben Wojdyla was unstarred
    Image of Franzouse Franzouse
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    Improvements in fuel economy since 1980 were also offset by the fact that we're all getting fatter; I can't believe the authors of this study would overlook such an important factor.
    /ducks #fueleconomy
     Reply
    Franzouse was starred Franzouse was unstarred
    Image of Elhigh Elhigh
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    As much as I am disgusted by model bloat, added features, and unnecessary complexities, I have to agree: the results are horseshit.

    A brand-new vehicle with comparable interior room and luggage capacity to my dad's old Citation, bought new back in 1980, delivers both better fuel economy and a radically improved driving experience. To say that the cruise control, myriad airbags and magnitudes-different engineering that goes into the intrusion prevention door beams, traction control and brake lockup prevention don't keep the fuel economy down would be to look through the wrong end of the telescope. By that same token, to say the fuel economy would be so much better if it weren't for all that added weight, is to block the telescope before looking through it.

    Things are better than they were, all around. Certain aspects could be much, much better, yes. But that would come at the expense of the improvement in other areas. This is the whole package. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    Elhigh was starred Elhigh was unstarred
    Image of that ain't the way to have fun, son that ain't the way to have fun, son
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    Fuel economy numbers, like every other either mandated or produced-by-the-gubment, is/can be tweaked to back up whatever propaganda is desired.

    Look at the "unemployment number". Totally. Worthless. Statistic. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    that ain't the way to have fun, son was starred that ain't the way to have fun, son was unstarred
    Image of BavarianFanatic BavarianFanatic
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    While this (and every damn study ever done) is basically propaganda, it's not entirely false. We have so much more crap stuffed into our ever burgeoning cars that are cranking out more than adequate horsepower than we could have ever imagined 20 years ago. The poster child for this silliness is the current generation of diesel pickups that have been tuned for ultimate power vs. overall economy. Sure I can now pull my neighbors house off it's foundation at idle, but can only achieve <10MPG while doing it. The point that I think everyone is missing is the fact that we could quite easily be driving 100MPG+ non-hybrid cars if we WANTED to. Problem is, nobody does. Imagine the economy you'd see in a 1980 Corolla with today's tech. All of the efforts going into hybrid technology, fuel cells, etc. are flawed in that we're trying to have our cake and eat it too. If all of the greenies were really committed to saving the world they'd be driving around in cars appropriate for their needs (proportionate to the number of people and amount of cargo they actually transport) and with sufficient power and features to get them from point A to point B in safety and relative comfort. Boom. Done. Problem solved. No crazy, overbaked technology with questionable longevity. No long term waste disposal issues or environmental impacts.

    And as I put the flame suit on...my daily driver is a far-from-stock Mustang GT that I beat the living crap out of with no regard for my "carbon footprint." I'm simply making the point that the general crux of the abstract presented is not baseless. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    BavarianFanatic was starred BavarianFanatic was unstarred
    Image of SgtBeavis SgtBeavis
    11/17/09

    @BavarianFanatic:

    Most of your argument is good but you probably should have left diesel pickups out of it.

    EVERY single diesel pickup that is sold in the US is a Heavy Duty (one ton or better). These are WORK trucks that are supposed to be able to pull a house off its foundation or pull a fifth wheel or horse trailer.

    The trucks that the rest of us "supposed" to use (I acknowledge that many folks buy more truck than they need) are all gas (petrol) fueled trucks. There is currently NO diesel option on any half ton or smaller truck.

    From a truck perspective, I think the bigger problem is that Ford is the only manufacturer that offers a truly small pickup (Ranger) but even that is destined to die in the next year or so. Ford just announced that the international version of the Ranger (also a small pickup) is not coming to the US. All other so called "small" pickups have gotten so big that they are as large full size pickups from the '90s. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    FЯeeMan promoted this comment SgtBeavis was starred SgtBeavis was unstarred
    Image of FЯeeMan FЯeeMan
    11/17/09

    @SgtBeavis: EVERY single diesel pickup that is sold in the US is a Heavy Duty (one ton or better). These are WORK trucks that are supposed to be able to pull a house off its foundation or pull a fifth wheel or horse trailer.

    I will respectfully, vehemently disagree with that statement. I live in Central Indiana (not terribly redneck), and the number of jacked-up, useless-as-work-vehicles 1-ton pickup trucks with rabbit-ear stacks and 36" Mickey Thompson's I see running around is amazing. None of these are used or useful for anything resembling work, few are taken farther off road than the front yard, and if any ever pull a trailer, they have to have a 12"+ drop for the hitch ball to keep the trailer bumper from scraping. As far as pulling houses off of foundations, I'm sure they have the torque, but the owners would never consider it because they may scratch the paint (truck, not house). #fueleconomy
     Reply
    FЯeeMan was starred FЯeeMan was unstarred
    Image of egoods egoods
    11/17/09

    In reply to Vehicle Weight Vs. Fuel Economy Study Ignores Gov Mandates
    A once (still?) great Stats teacher once told me: "Edward, there's facts, and then there's stats" #fueleconomy
     Reply
    egoods was starred egoods was unstarred
    Image of BLCKSTRM BLCKSTRM
    11/17/09

    @egoods: I believe the order is 1) Lies, 2) Damn Lies, and 3) Statistics. #fueleconomy
     Reply
    FTGDWolverineEdition'09 promoted this comment BLCKSTRM was starred BLCKSTRM was unstarred
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