[forum.avtoindex.com]

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From someone that has tried driving hard in the rain,
this is why!
[jalopnik.com]

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Personal opinion is that when it gets so wet that a MG Midget on a set of Michelin X tires would run off and hide from you, it's time to park all that horsepower for a while.

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I have a few friends with Miatas who regularly beat out Evos and other cars with significantly more power, and it's definitely easier for them in the rain, as you all stated. The fun runs are also hilarious when it's sopping wet :)

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All of this while "people's government" enjoys drinks, food, and race queens at your local F1 race.

The US is far from perfect, but China is on an entirely different plane of messed up government.

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China as a nation has been around much longer than the US, that is true, as is the fact that they have a vastly different historical background. But that in and of itself does not invalidate any comparison between two countries. It does not invalidate the fact that they raise generations of people to live and work in the same factory, with little contact with the outside world, no different than literally breeding workhorses.

And the Chinese government is not ashamed of any of this; what I saw there was on a state-funded trip.

We can argue the philosophical definition of happiness till the cows come home, but the point I was trying to make is that I find it sad that China cares more about the supposed prestige of Formula 1 than it does its own populace.

It is just unbelievably irrational; kind of like Kim Jong Il flying the Laker Girls out to party with him. You know?

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Wow, you're stupid

They raise GENERATIONS of people live and work in the same factory? God, how dumb are you? CLEARLY you do not know what the state of the country let alone history was 50 years ago because those factories WERE NOT THERE. By my count, it has only been ONE GENERATION.

And I hope to god you dont live in the western world. Because EACH AND EVERY country who has gone through an industrialization (mind you China went through the industrialization and technological boom at the same time) has been guilty of the same crimes you claim against China.

Stop watching FOX news, and pick up a book and read

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Actually, punk, it's two generations now, and there is no sign that it will change anytime soon.

Before you start talking out of your ass, actually go there. Like I have. Many of the factories aren't mere production facilities, they are small towns in and of themselves, not at all unlike the broad concept that was the coal mining towns in the US 50 years ago. The difference is, it is difficult, and sometimes impossible, for the workers in China to leave. To start with, there is the factory itself, and located around the factories are a number of compounds that the workers are housed in. They wake up, get on a shuttle, go to the factory, get shuttled back to their compounds, and then they repeat the process. For their entire lives. Their children are trained to take the positions that their parents held. The only contact that these people have is from those within their same compound, and at the factory, those from other compounds.

As a matter of fact, I do live in the Western world, and I am as familiar with the history of Western industrialization as you claim to be, which might go some way to explaining the reference to Upton Sinclair's The Jungle.

Don't accuse others of failing to read if you yourself cannot recognize a title as fundamentally significant to the Western world as that.

Now, as to your other claims of China and it going through two "booms" at once and claiming that that has a significant effect on the nature of the argument, why don't you do a little research and back up your claim. Or is it that you may realize that the treatment of the populace that I object to stems not from any advancement in civilization, but rather the collectivist culture that has not advanced or changed in several thousand years?

I have no problem with someone disagreeing with anyone else and stating it, but do so respectfully. Or, if you insist on being arrogant about it, then at least back up your claim and make sure you have a reasonable foundation upon which to work.

ALL CAPS and Fox news insults can be posed by any second grader.

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I apologize for calling you a punk. That was just as juvenile as your approach to argumentation and disagreement, and I am sorry for that.

But in all honesty, don't be so quick to sit there and call other people idiots. The evidence that I offer is experiential, which I gathered from a Chinese-government sponsored trip in which they flew us out, took us for a tour of the country, and planned the entire agenda.

Clearly that does not demonstrate any semblance to this treatment of people being a simple "industrialist phase".

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Congratulations, you went to China and saw it with your own eyes. That doesnt mean anything still! Did you talk to them? No because your eyes are too busy judging others. Western ignorance at its finest.

I do agree in SOME cases there are those issues of families getting stuck in factories with a simple reason. Lack of education. However there are plenty of cases where families send their children to school (despite barely getting by after paying for these schools) in hopes of bettering themselves. Hell, that is Chinese culture after all.

Are you trying to say that China's civilization isnt advancing? Are you trying to presume that advancement has ceased in the past "several thousand years"?! That only proves my point that you lack any knowledge of the subject and just running your mouth. I hope you do realize that ONE THOUSAND YEARS AGO FROM TODAY, China was probably the most advanced civilization, all the way up until 400 years ago. It wasnt until the 1800s before China began falling behind because it began isolating itself from the world. Pick up a history book PLEASE!

I am not saying the two booms is the only reason China's quality of life is so bad. I believe it also has to do something with its huge population. The last country to go through such a huge economic/social/technological boom was the US. If you compare the US and any other country with a smaller population, UK, Germany, and France their growth you will see is slower but their quality of life is also growing at the same time (still not as rapid though). US on the other hand slumped on the quality of life as their economy and industries charged through as their quality of life slowly picked up. If you read on population vs sustainability vs economic booms you can CLEARLY see a correlation between the three. As population grows, economy grows, but at a rapid rate the quality of life usually will suffer. If you need further evidence then you can see India is entirely analogous to this as it is also experiencing such a turbulent economic boom.

Finally telling me to do research yet you clearly have NO evidence of your own is astounding. Shows quite a bit of character. Simply going to China and visiting for one day at a factory says nothing. It might tell you their present condition, however it is a long shot saying that it is a prison to the family. Not even speaking to these people says volumes of your own ignorance as well.

I personally have spoken a few people from China before and they have all agreed although the factory jobs suck, it pays a lot more than what they were doing before. Are they happy with it? Well we dont really know but we can say their quality of life has somewhat improved as the dorms of the factories have food, water and electricity. However China today is much more different. With the megacities, many people are actually moving into the cities and looking for better jobs (like what we probably looked for when we were kids, mall jobs, fast food joints, etc). And like I said before many people are also getting out of the factories to get an education as well.

And why do I say Fox News? Well simply put, its people like you who watch Fox News and try to smear China in every way you can without ever actually questioning it what you say. Have us Americans so quickly forgotten our own atrocities?

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And as brief a response as possible:

1)The past atrocities of Western civilizations do nothing to alter the factual nature of China in its current state of existence. If anything, it validates. We committed our atrocities, we recognized them, and we learned from them. Nice try, though.

2)Those instances of Chinese education, while true, are still in the vast minority.

3)And yes, I am trying to say that Chinese civilization is not advancing all that quickly. You yourself point out that that 1,000 years ago, they were the most advnaced civilization. More like about 2,000 years ago, but that is beside the point. Why did they suddenly fall so far behind? Because they failed to continue to advance while the rest of the world did.

Kindly pick up a history book and read.

4)Obviously it has to do with population size. In other news, the world is round. It also has much to do with a country that does not, and has never, placed significant value on individual well-being, which is yet another reason for their slow advancement. You cannot have well-being of the state without improving the well-being of the populace, as the populace makes up the state.

5)I would agree that the US is not making the quickest advances in quality of life at the moment, but that may have something to do with the fact that we have had a better quality of life than most of the world for most of our history.

6)I have given you experiential evidence based on what the Chinese government itself chose to show me. If you want numbers, go and look them up for yourself. But the mistake you are making now is that numbers tell the story of everything. You must be math major. I'm sorry to disappoint your teachings, but numbers are meaningless without the context of reality, and the reality tells a vastly different story than the numbers and theory that you seem to have founded your argument on would suggest.

6)Just because something is an improvement on what existed before doesn't mean that it is good. Check your logic. The Chinese people may say it is vastly better than what they were hitherto used to, but that means nothing except that it is vastly better than what they were hitherto used to. Say that one to yourself a couple of times until it makes sense.

7)Once again, any second grader can put forth a Fox news joke. Try and be a little more creative than that. Also, the news channel that you watch has no effect on your views of a certain culture. Rather, it has to do with your education. If you do not realize that, then clearly your own education was somewaht lacking in quality.

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