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Detroit, 3:06 PM
Mon Dec 7
16 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of MOPAR-MAN MOPAR-MAN
    11/29/09

    In reply to Roll Cage Stress Test In 3... 2... 1...
    You are going to NEED a roll cage if you make one of these cold air kits. [www.youtube.com]
     Reply
    Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet promoted this comment Edited by MOPAR-MAN at 11/29/09 8:14 AM MOPAR-MAN was starred MOPAR-MAN was unstarred
    Image of Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet
    11/29/09

    @MOPAR-MAN: Looks like a regular afterburner there. I particularly appreciate how some of his air sensors have been bypassed. And I'm sure that's fireproof masking tape.
     Reply
    Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet was starred Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet was unstarred
    Image of FTGDWolverineEdition'09 FTGDWolverineEdition'09
    11/29/09

    In reply to Roll Cage Stress Test In 3... 2... 1...
    No wonder NHTSA introduced the new roof crush tests.
     Reply
    FTGDWolverineEdition'09 was starred FTGDWolverineEdition'09 was unstarred
    Image of Adam Von Jurczak Adam Von Jurczak
    11/29/09

    In reply to Roll Cage Stress Test In 3... 2... 1...
    They weren't kidding when they said the MGB could corner.
     Reply
    Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet promoted this comment Adam Von Jurczak was starred Adam Von Jurczak was unstarred
    Image of Rupunzell Rupunzell
    11/29/09

    In reply to Roll Cage Stress Test In 3... 2... 1...
    I had a good look at this MGB post crash. The failed welds and torn body sheet metal where this bolt-in roll cage was installed got me very, very concerned. This driver was very lucky to have come out of this roll end-over crash without serious injury..

    While LeMons cars might be "cheap race heaps" there is no excuse to be "cheap" on safety. Every bit of safety equipment on all LeMons race cars must be held to the highest possible standard of safety..

    Every LeMons race team and driver must ask what are their drivers life worth... Was it worth saving those few bucks to install anything less than the best in safety for your LeMons racer if an airborne moment similar to what happened to this MGB killed the driver and cause injury to your fellow LeMons racers worth pinching pennies?

    LeMons racing is serious business, take every aspect of safety very, very seriously...
     Reply
    FTGDWolverineEdition'09 promoted this comment Rupunzell was starred Rupunzell was unstarred
    Image of KillerBRacer KillerBRacer
    11/29/09

    @Rupunzell: I had a good look at it too. BUT, to clear this up:

    A) Autopower roll cage. B) Experienced cage welder. C) Nothing cheap about it.

    I was cheap on the car, but spent a boatload on the best safety gear and resent your assumptions.

    The failures concern me too. It DID however survive THREE flips. I will take what was learned and improve the next cage.
     Reply
    Murilee Martin promoted this comment KillerBRacer was starred KillerBRacer was unstarred
    Image of Armand Armand
    11/29/09

    @Rupunzell: It's important to remember that, even if one of the welds did break and the mounting plate tried to go through the floor, the cage did its job. It wasn't pretty, and perhaps a welded-in (rather than bolted-in) cage would have fared a little better, but the cage protected the driver. This car took more punishment than any $500 piece of British tin should ever have to, and the driver walked away.

    With a few notable (and annoying) exceptions, people at LeMons DO take safety seriously. That's why safety items aren't included in the $500 limit.
     Reply
    Armand was starred Armand was unstarred
    Image of Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet
    11/29/09

    @KillerBRacer: Looks like the mounting plate on the wheel arch was undersized and couldn't spread the load out far enough. It wasn't a failure of the cage, but of the underlying sheet metal.

    Everything can always be stronger, but there are practical limits. I'd say the cage performed very well.

    But it points up an issue for folks using clapped out econocars - the underlying structure, and all it's finite element pieces, only have so much gumption, before they get stressed from twenty years of hard use and have largely rusted away.
     Reply
    Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet was starred Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet was unstarred
    Image of Rupunzell Rupunzell
    11/30/09

    @KillerBRacer:

    $$$$$ spent or "experienced cage welder" does not mean a safe cage. IMO, any bolt in cage is questionable.
    Bolt in means loading what is basically 0.035" thick sheet metal with several thousands pound of force in a small area. It will fail... the real questions is how bad will the failure be.

    You may resent what I say about the roll cage in that MGB, my point is do what ever it takes to make DAM SURE that roll cage is will not fail. You're lucky to have survived that triple flip without serious unjury, but what if the MGB flipped over more than that and the car ended up on track upside down and nailed by more than one other LeMons race car directly on the cage with torn sheet metal anchor plates and broken welds?

    Possible yes, and the results could have been less pretty.

    Again, what is your life worth?
     Reply
    Rupunzell was starred Rupunzell was unstarred
    Image of KillerBRacer KillerBRacer
    12/05/09

    @Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet: I was a little wary of Autopower's design using the wheelwell instead of the nearby structural rail, but you figure they know what they are doing eh? Guess not. The tear started at the bolt hole in thin sheetmetal. Ironically, the idea was to keep the cage portable so I could swap into another car if it got destroyed or remove it if we got the curse. It turns out I have to junk the cage and am rebuilding the car. Go figure. I'm having a well known pro builder do the next cage.
     Reply
    KillerBRacer was starred KillerBRacer was unstarred
    Image of Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet
    12/06/09

    @KillerBRacer: I think your cage performed extraordinarily well, and that the mounting was a bit undersized. It seems like you'd made reasonable decisions at the time. You can try to anticipate everything, but if you tried to armor the car for perfect safety it would be too heavy to move.

    Your original thought that the cage would outlast the car also makes sense. However, if you have adequate access, you could sawzall the cage off above the welds to the frame when you wanted to remove the new one. You'd have a little cleanup and patching before refitting, but it wouldn't be that much additional effort . The cage could be an inch taller, too, so you have some room for wastage.

    The bolts and the mounting plate didn't fail, it was the mounting point that failed. If the load plate was larger, or bolted to sturdier materials, it probably would have held. The crack in the weld of the top bar is more of a concern to me. It suggests that the weld wasn't all it could be, that the pipe thickness and/or diameter could be increased, or that additional members should be considered.

    Good luck out there!
     Reply
    Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet was starred Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet was unstarred
    Image of CptSevere CptSevere
    11/29/09

    In reply to Roll Cage Stress Test In 3... 2... 1...
    It really was a shame that the B flipped. It takes a lot to do that, I mean you can pretty much drag your knuckles on the ground sitting in one. Too bad the car is so far gone that not even ordering one of everything from the Moss Motors catalog would put it back on the track.
     Reply
    Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet promoted this comment CptSevere was starred CptSevere was unstarred
    Image of KillerBRacer KillerBRacer
    11/29/09

    @CptSevere: Rumors of the Bee's demise have been greatly exaggerated. Bang-bang-bang goes the hammer, clank-smash-clunk go bad parts.
     Reply
    Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet promoted this comment KillerBRacer was starred KillerBRacer was unstarred
    Image of TriumphRacer TriumphRacer
    11/29/09

    In reply to Roll Cage Stress Test In 3... 2... 1...
    That was a roll-riffic race. The Weinerschmoker E30 went off and rolled spectacularly in front of us (Cheese Eating Surrender Monkey Peugeot) ended up on its roof and the driver hung from the straps for about 10 minutes before the wrecker could come get him. Good times.
     Reply
    Armand promoted this comment TriumphRacer was starred TriumphRacer was unstarred
    Image of joneez wants the clunkers he paid for joneez wants the clunkers he paid for
    11/28/09

    In reply to Roll Cage Stress Test In 3... 2... 1...
    I gave my brother a t-shirt that looked like it was dirty, had some holes in it, a couple smears of blood and a few leaves stuck to it. On the back it said, "all I saw was sky, dirt, sky, dirt, sky, dirt, medevac." Looks like this guy needs one also.
     Reply
    joneez wants the clunkers he paid for was starred joneez wants the clunkers he paid for was unstarred
    Image of KillerBRacer KillerBRacer
    11/29/09

    @joneez wants the clunkers he paid for: Ha-ha-ha! Our driver said the same thing... I want one of those shirts.
     Reply
    Armand promoted this comment KillerBRacer was starred KillerBRacer was unstarred
    Image of Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet
    11/28/09

    In reply to Roll Cage Stress Test In 3... 2... 1...
    Good thing they give prizes for the best pirouette. That was impressive. As was the survivability of the cage, the car and the driver. I'm glad everything worked like it should.

    Next time you might want to tune your aero package a little more.
     Reply
    Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet was starred Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet was unstarred
    Image of Armand Armand
    11/28/09

    In reply to Roll Cage Stress Test In 3... 2... 1...
    The title "roll cage stress test" is a little more impressive after you see these two pictures:
     Reply
    Armand was starred Armand was unstarred
    Image of Armand Armand
    11/28/09

    @Armand: Oops.
    [www.flickr.com]
    and
    [www.flickr.com]
    I have a feeling last weekend's rollovers will quiet down the people who have been whining about the roll cage regulations on the LeMons forum.
     Reply
    Armand was starred Armand was unstarred
    Image of Jon Jon
    11/28/09

    @Armand: Youch. I've bent cages before, but never cracked one, or put one through the floor.
     Reply
    Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet promoted this comment Jon was starred Jon was unstarred
    Image of smalleyxb122 smalleyxb122
    11/28/09

    @Armand: I was patiently waiting for someone to make a Flight of the Bumblebee joke, but I see that you've got it covered with your picture captions. Well played.

    As for the pictures themselves: Yikes. Damned lucky that the car didn't take just one more tumble after the cage was compromised. I don't reckon that landing on the roof with an already cracked roll cage would have ended as well.

    Glad everyone is alright.
     Reply
    smalleyxb122 was starred smalleyxb122 was unstarred
    Image of Novaload Novaload
    11/28/09

    In reply to Roll Cage Stress Test In 3... 2... 1...
    You don't see cornering like that every day!
     Reply
    Novaload was starred Novaload was unstarred
    Image of underwear-ninja underwear-ninja
    11/28/09

    In reply to Roll Cage Stress Test In 3... 2... 1...
    Probably could have placed the dismount better. I give it a 6.
     Reply
    Novaload promoted this comment underwear-ninja was starred underwear-ninja was unstarred
    Image of that ain't the way to have fun, son that ain't the way to have fun, son
    11/28/09

    In reply to Roll Cage Stress Test In 3... 2... 1...
    Aw, look...it's doing cartwheels....
     Reply
    that ain't the way to have fun, son was starred that ain't the way to have fun, son was unstarred
    Image of MushyHeirloom MushyHeirloom
    11/28/09

    In reply to V8olvo Gets Upside-Down, Roof Barely Dented: Volvo Bricks As Sturdy As Advertised!
    I stand on my roof on a regular basis. This doesn't surprise me at all.
     Reply
    MushyHeirloom was starred MushyHeirloom was unstarred
    Image of solracer solracer
    11/23/09

    In reply to Wienerschmoker E30 Gets Shiny Side Down, Brings Arse Freeze Rollover Total To Three
    I had a front-row seat to the rollover. I was passing the Corvair with our Peugeot coming out of 6 when the BMW blasted by on the inside and hooked it, either because of some dirt on the inside of the corner or because he got caught by the 3-series jacking problem and put his CG over his center of roll. It was a beautiful roll-over, the car did at least a one-and-a-half twist on the passenger side headlight before falling on the roof. I was worried about the driver because he stayed in the car until it was righted but he was fine and decided that he didn't want to undo the belts while upside-down. We caught some of it on video hopefully but the file with that part has a problem and we've yet to recover it. If we do I'll post it here right away.
     Reply
    FЯeeMan promoted this comment solracer was starred solracer was unstarred
    Image of FЯeeMan FЯeeMan
    11/23/09

    @solracer: I was with you right up until you said, " I was passing the Corvair with our Peugeot ".

    That threw me so far off track, the rest didn't really make sense...
     Reply
    FЯeeMan was starred FЯeeMan was unstarred
    Image of skitter skitter
    11/23/09

    @FЯeeMan: It's probably what caused the E30 driver to wreck.
     Reply
    skitter was starred skitter was unstarred
    Image of solracer solracer
    11/23/09

    @FЯeeMan: Just to make it weirder I own a Corvair as well.
     Reply
    solracer was starred solracer was unstarred
    Image of LTDScott LTDScott
    11/23/09

    In reply to Wienerschmoker E30 Gets Shiny Side Down, Brings Arse Freeze Rollover Total To Three
    Wait, that engine didn't get any penalties?! Pro-tip, all E30s had a metal intake manifold. The big plastic manifold should have been a clue that something was not kosher.
     Reply
    LTDScott was starred LTDScott was unstarred
    Image of Braff Braff
    11/23/09

    @LTDScott: There were some FAST E30s at this race...
     Reply
    Braff was starred Braff was unstarred
    Image of Murilee Martin Murilee Martin
    11/23/09

    @LTDScott: The team had completely obsessive documentation for that engine, which they bought from some dude on Craigslist for a ridiculously cheap price. Plus they got Judge Ed, one of the original LeMons judges, and he's a little nicer than me and Judge Jonny.
     Reply
    Murilee Martin was starred Murilee Martin was unstarred
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