The problem with Consumer Reports is that people ASSUME that if a car is not recommended by them - it's because that car is not reliable. But that's not always the case. Take the Chrysler 300C - for instance. The 300C IS reliable. But it might have relatively poor gas mileage - or it might not be as easy [For the CR testers] to maneuver around some of their pylons, etc. [Or whatever] There is more to it than whether or not a car is actually reliable. If you take a look at those red and black circles next to each car [That CR uses] the 300C is a sea of RED - meaning 'much better than average'. CR's ratings don't always add up - as far as I'm concerned. And curiously enough - the 300C WAS recommended by CR a couple of years ago. And we all know the car hasn't changed since then. So what's up with that? Huh?! #consumerreports
@skierpage: I thought it looked nice, google images gave me zillions of pictures of a sierra cosworth and this one seemed legit since it was fron a UK website.
BTW quit whining about a small technicality in spelling. Im sorry that allot got your panties in a knot. #consumerreports
@matt, Ford, which is perceived as offering quality and reliability on par with Asian automakers
You're confused, it's not a perception survey. Nor is it one of those JD Powers Initial Quality Surveys. It's "based on Consumer Reports subscribers' experiences with 1.4 million vehicles."
Here are all CR's most reliable mid-size cars:
Toyota Prius
Ford Fusion Hybrid*
Volvo S40 (FWD)*
Mercury Milan Hybrid*
Ford Fusion (FWD)
Nissan Altima Hybrid
Mercury Milan (FWD)
Toyota Camry Hybrid
Lotta hybrids. The Ratings for models with * are based on data for one model year only. They're all recommended by CR except for the Volvo which scored low in their safety testing.
Ford Mustang is among the most reliable "Sporty cars, coupes & convertibles", though it doesn't get a recommendation; Lincoln MKZ is among the most reliable "Upscale/luxury cars" and gets a recommendation. Go Ford!
Chrysler and GM don't have a single most reliable car, truck or SUV in the survey. And all three domestics have a least reliable pickup truck. #consumerreports
Most reliable pickup trucks: Toyota Tundra (V6), Toyota Tacoma (V6, 2WD), Honda Ridgeline
Least reliable pickup trucks: Chevrolet Colorado (4WD), GMC Canyon (4WD), Ford F-250 (turbodiesel, 4WD)*, Nissan Titan (2WD)*
CR didn't like the Volvo S40: Overall, however, the S40 trails the competition. The noisy five-cylinder engine has decent acceleration, but is somewhat slow compared with some other sporty sedans, and the ride is very stiff. The rear seat is cramped, with very tight leg room. But those aren't safety issues, so that explanation of why some extremely reliable cars like the S40 and the Honda Insight don't get a recommendation is misleading. (Note that this is the only area where CR's opinion enters the survey results.) #consumerreports
The original Mazda6 and Fusion/Milan/Zephyr/MKz shared much beneath the skin. All very good, reliable cars that sold pretty well.
Ford updates the triplets to rave reviews from the public and media. Still the same basic cars, but better. Sales go up.
Mazda re-engineers the 6 into an Accord wannabe because "people" said the original was too small thinking they could cash in on the CamCord success. It now has confused styling, more weight, is less fun to drive and Mazda can't give them away in the US.
@heavylee-again: I'd guess that at that time, you'd have more rust on the Toyota, more transmission problems on the Ford, and more loose trim bits on the Honda. Only marginal differences, though.
My grandfather has an '03 Sable - yes, the old one - with over 110k; it's been brilliant (as was the '01 that preceded it), and most other Tauri I've seen around here from 2000-up are similar. And now the Fusion's the second-most-reliable family car. I like this trend. #consumerreports
@heavylee-again: So, ten years ago now my dad bought a brand new Ford. That Ford now has over 270,000 miles on all original parts save for a clutch replacement.
Hell, this girl who I am trying very hard to become more then just friends with, has a 300k+ Dodge Grand Caravan (2003). In the long run, I'd trust American over anything else. Excluding certain, specific models of course. Just depends on the model, engine, transmission. #consumerreports
@NewbiusMaximus: i can't wait till there are no more PT cruiser rentals. I had to rent one a month ago, it was so depressing, didn't even have cruise control. #consumerreports
"Additionally, in the family sedan reliability category, the new Ford Fusion and Merury Milan are only bested by the Toyota Prius."
Is the Prius that reliable? I have a difficult time trusting a vehicle with so many batteries and electronics. Also, it's still a fairly new technology that hasn't been around enough to test how reliable it is.
I wonder how well they will work after a few winters up north with all the cold and the salt. #consumerreports
@Joe Valasek: I HATE the Prius with the blue hot intensity of ten thousand suns, but the technology is no longer new. Hybrids have been sold for around ten years, and the Prius is in it's third iteration if memory serves. The only hybrid that predates it (by a few months) is the original Honda Insight, which to this day is still the most fuel efficient and aerodynamic car ever sold. (It looks a little like a miniature Citroen DS, if you have never seen one). #consumerreports
@Jim-Bob:
I guess I question the Prius mainly because of the batteries. How long do they actually last? Even if it is included in the "standard maintenance", replacing the batteries is akin to replacing a major component on a normal car (such as a transmission).
If my Vic needed a transmission every 5 years, I would not consider it reliable.
I didn't realize the platform was that old though. #consumerreports
@Joe Valasek:
The Prius has also been the most reliable car in JD Powers and TrueDelta surveys (though the 2008 Toyota Yaris did even better in the most recent TrueDelta survey). #consumerreports
@Joe Valasek: There are Prius taxis with a couple hundred thousand miles and batteries that are just fine. Lithium ion batteries do require replacement after three to five years, regardless of use - this is a major reason that the Tesla is a poor investment. (Look at your laptop - I dunno about yours, but mine's four years old, and its battery life dropped from three and a half hours to under half an hour in the past several months.) The Prius uses nickel metal hydride (NiMH) batteries that don't have the same lifespan problems. (They do, however, have occasional problems with escaped rats.) #consumerreports
@MushyHeirloom: Lithium ion batteries do require replacement after three to five years, regardless of use
Not true. It depends how you manage discharge-recharge cycles and state of charge, just like NiMH batteries. If you repeatedly drain to 0 and recharge to 100%, lifetime will be terrible for most lithium chemistries, but only homebrew conversions and Chinese prototypes do that. "Tesla engineers have determined that a Tesla battery pack should last approximately seven years or over 100,000 miles under normal use." (I think Tesla doesn't have to offer a specific battery warranty because it's not part of the emissions system of a fuel-burning car, like the Prius.) If it worries you, you can pay Tesla $12,000 up front for a guaranteed replacement battery in 7 years. #consumerreports
@skierpage: Lithium-ion doesn't quite work the same way. Borrowing my laptop as an example again, it stayed 100% charged for the first three years of its life, then was discharged to, on average, 70% before being fully recharged over the past year (it was my grandmother's; she used it as a compact desktop, I use it as a laptop). Yes, you can increase battery life by keeping it cool and maintaining a partial charge, but that's standard battery care.
Seven years wouldn't shock me, but I'd bet that seven years wouldn't be much different regardless of how often and how aggressively the car is driven. Dan Rutter has a rant about this here; the man generally knows his shit.
Basically, what I'm saying is that the Tesla's batteries are going to be entirely useless within a decade, which isn't necessarily true of the Prius and other NiMH and NiCd-using electric-motored cars. And Tesla's survival over the next decade is by no means guaranteed. Who wants a hundred-large lawn ornament? Anyone? #consumerreports
@BMRFILE:
The definition of "quality" at 200K miles is a lot different than the same definition with 90 days of new car purchase. Both data points are valid.
At 200K, it is things like good engineering and strict maintenance that play a larger role in the definition of "quality".
Besides, most car owners sell or trade before the 200K mark, making that data point mostly irrelevant except for those who buy at the very low end of the marketplace. #consumerreports
@BMRFILE:
The definition of "quality" at 200K miles is a lot different than the same definition with 90 days of new car purchase. Both data points are valid.
At 200K, it is things like good engineering and strict maintenance that play a larger role in the definition of "quality".
Besides, most car owners sell or trade before the 200K mark, making that data point mostly irrelevant except for those who buy at the very low end of the marketplace. #consumerreports
@Uncle Bo: you answered the question that I proposed: Good engineering. Ford has proven themselves in the past 5 years that they have focused on engineering on most of their cars, and suck up their pride and ask for their European counterpart for help. But until I see more Ford vehicles living past the 200k mark, I'm not convinced they're better than Honda and Toyota. #consumerreports
Are you insinuating the availability of capital when Ford wanted but not for GM/Chrysler soon after has more to do with their lack of bailout than their brilliant autos and marketing genius? #consumerreports
Well, when gas goes back up to $4 a gallon and Ford's revenues dry up because suddenly nobody wants an F-150, we'll see who needs federal bailouts. #consumerreports
@gla2yyz: Good one... yeah, news flash... that already happened, and people still bought F150s. Believe it or not, there are people and businesses out there who actually need trucks. Maybe the Al Gore crowd should try running a contracting business with a fucking Smart Car and see how that works out. #consumerreports
Hello, the big sellers Fusion and Milan are made in Mexico, the Fiesta and probably the next Focus will also be made in Mexico. So how much of Ford it will be american? #consumerreports
@Motor_Yakuza: All of it. Paying Mexicans to manufacture an American-designed product under American management doesn't make it any less American. Check out this here 'global economy' thing-a-ma-jig. #consumerreports
@therealmusashi: Welllll... in my book a Honda made in America of mostly American parts is as American, if not more so, than a Mexican built Ford. #consumerreports
@MushyHeirloom: Point definitely taken - I was using the lazy shorthand of "American" as short for USAian. Seriously, what should we call ourselves? I'm confused now, so maybe Confucian? #consumerreports
Last month Car and Driver said an Audi beat a 3 Series in a head to head. Now Consumer Reports says that Ford is as high quality as Honda/Toyota. WTF? Where am I? #consumerreports
@VeeArrrSix: Now Consumer Reports says that Ford is as high quality as Honda/Toyota.
Unfortunately for Ford, CR is not quite saying that. Some Ford models are doing well and getting recommendations, but they're dragged down by unreliable models. In the survey, Scion's the most reliable nameplate, with cars ranging from about 32-60% more reliable than average, followed by Honda (18-84%), then Toyota (minus 8 worse than average to 78%). Ford comes in 16th (minus 110-57%), Mercury 10th (minus 13 - 54%) and Lincoln 20th (minus 70 - 55%).
The graph is interesting. Buy a subscription to see it, if CR steers you away from one overpriced unreliable appliance it's paid for itself. #consumerreports
@skierpage: Sarcasm dude... Sarcasm. Consumer Reports and Car and Driver are so biased that they have become the MSNBC of auto journalism.
Scion's cars IMHO are ugly and underpowered. I'd rather have a GTI with all the electrical problems than be caught dead in one of 'em.
I think that you referring to a car as an "appliance" sums it up. I don't buy transportation, I buy a feeling, the unbridled glee of having something different, odd perhaps, that maybe takes some skill or talent to keep running. How the hec am I supposed to be a Jalop if my cars always run perfect?
@Electro_Boogie: The statement is incorrect. No FWD car is better than a RWD car, ever. Look it up in 'the laws of good cars', under, 'torque steering, nose heavy cars suck' #consumerreports
@brc is never late, because of his v8: With all other variables intact, RWD FWD. (If my Volvo was front-wheel-drive, it would be miserable.) However, a Volkswagen GTI is a better car than a Plymouth Volare, despite the wheels that are driven. #consumerreports
10/28/09
10/27/09
I think we can really attribute Ford's successes to the Tempo. I dunno' I'm just throwing that out there. #consumerreports
10/28/09
10/27/09
And some of the overseas models are pretty sweet.
10/27/09
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10/27/09
(Your spell checker should be suggesting "a lot" for "alot", not "allot". [getfirefox.com] ) #consumerreports
10/28/09
10/28/09
BTW quit whining about a small technicality in spelling. Im sorry that allot got your panties in a knot. #consumerreports
10/28/09
10/27/09
Ford, which is perceived as offering quality and reliability on par with Asian automakers
You're confused, it's not a perception survey. Nor is it one of those JD Powers Initial Quality Surveys. It's "based on Consumer Reports subscribers' experiences with 1.4 million vehicles."
Here are all CR's most reliable mid-size cars:
Toyota Prius
Ford Fusion Hybrid*
Volvo S40 (FWD)*
Mercury Milan Hybrid*
Ford Fusion (FWD)
Nissan Altima Hybrid
Mercury Milan (FWD)
Toyota Camry Hybrid
Lotta hybrids. The Ratings for models with * are based on data for one model year only. They're all recommended by CR except for the Volvo which scored low in their safety testing.
Ford Mustang is among the most reliable "Sporty cars, coupes & convertibles", though it doesn't get a recommendation; Lincoln MKZ is among the most reliable "Upscale/luxury cars" and gets a recommendation. Go Ford!
Chrysler and GM don't have a single most reliable car, truck or SUV in the survey. And all three domestics have a least reliable pickup truck. #consumerreports
10/27/09
10/27/09
"the Volvo which scored low in their safety testing"
The Chinese haven't bought 'em yet; what happened?
10/27/09
Most reliable pickup trucks: Toyota Tundra (V6), Toyota Tacoma (V6, 2WD), Honda Ridgeline
Least reliable pickup trucks: Chevrolet Colorado (4WD), GMC Canyon (4WD), Ford F-250 (turbodiesel, 4WD)*, Nissan Titan (2WD)*
CR didn't like the Volvo S40: Overall, however, the S40 trails the competition. The noisy five-cylinder engine has decent acceleration, but is somewhat slow compared with some other sporty sedans, and the ride is very stiff. The rear seat is cramped, with very tight leg room. But those aren't safety issues, so that explanation of why some extremely reliable cars like the S40 and the Honda Insight don't get a recommendation is misleading. (Note that this is the only area where CR's opinion enters the survey results.) #consumerreports
10/28/09
And the Titan's a perennial joke. #consumerreports
10/27/09
Ford updates the triplets to rave reviews from the public and media. Still the same basic cars, but better. Sales go up.
Mazda re-engineers the 6 into an Accord wannabe because "people" said the original was too small thinking they could cash in on the CamCord success. It now has confused styling, more weight, is less fun to drive and Mazda can't give them away in the US.
Interesting. #consumerreports
10/27/09
Let's talk in 8 years and match up a 2009 Ford vs a 2009 Honda/Toyota and see where things stand then. #consumerreports
10/27/09
My grandfather has an '03 Sable - yes, the old one - with over 110k; it's been brilliant (as was the '01 that preceded it), and most other Tauri I've seen around here from 2000-up are similar. And now the Fusion's the second-most-reliable family car. I like this trend. #consumerreports
10/27/09
Hell, this girl who I am trying very hard to become more then just friends with, has a 300k+ Dodge Grand Caravan (2003). In the long run, I'd trust American over anything else. Excluding certain, specific models of course. Just depends on the model, engine, transmission. #consumerreports
10/27/09
I once drove a PT cruiser as a rental car. Never again. #consumerreports
10/27/09
10/27/09
10/27/09
Is the Prius that reliable? I have a difficult time trusting a vehicle with so many batteries and electronics. Also, it's still a fairly new technology that hasn't been around enough to test how reliable it is.
I wonder how well they will work after a few winters up north with all the cold and the salt. #consumerreports
10/27/09
10/27/09
I guess I question the Prius mainly because of the batteries. How long do they actually last? Even if it is included in the "standard maintenance", replacing the batteries is akin to replacing a major component on a normal car (such as a transmission).
If my Vic needed a transmission every 5 years, I would not consider it reliable.
I didn't realize the platform was that old though. #consumerreports
10/27/09
The Prius has also been the most reliable car in JD Powers and TrueDelta surveys (though the 2008 Toyota Yaris did even better in the most recent TrueDelta survey). #consumerreports
10/27/09
10/27/09
10/27/09
Not true. It depends how you manage discharge-recharge cycles and state of charge, just like NiMH batteries. If you repeatedly drain to 0 and recharge to 100%, lifetime will be terrible for most lithium chemistries, but only homebrew conversions and Chinese prototypes do that. "Tesla engineers have determined that a Tesla battery pack should last approximately seven years or over 100,000 miles under normal use." (I think Tesla doesn't have to offer a specific battery warranty because it's not part of the emissions system of a fuel-burning car, like the Prius.) If it worries you, you can pay Tesla $12,000 up front for a guaranteed replacement battery in 7 years. #consumerreports
10/28/09
Seven years wouldn't shock me, but I'd bet that seven years wouldn't be much different regardless of how often and how aggressively the car is driven. Dan Rutter has a rant about this here; the man generally knows his shit.
Basically, what I'm saying is that the Tesla's batteries are going to be entirely useless within a decade, which isn't necessarily true of the Prius and other NiMH and NiCd-using electric-motored cars. And Tesla's survival over the next decade is by no means guaranteed. Who wants a hundred-large lawn ornament? Anyone? #consumerreports
10/27/09
10/27/09
The definition of "quality" at 200K miles is a lot different than the same definition with 90 days of new car purchase. Both data points are valid.
At 200K, it is things like good engineering and strict maintenance that play a larger role in the definition of "quality".
Besides, most car owners sell or trade before the 200K mark, making that data point mostly irrelevant except for those who buy at the very low end of the marketplace. #consumerreports
10/27/09
The definition of "quality" at 200K miles is a lot different than the same definition with 90 days of new car purchase. Both data points are valid.
At 200K, it is things like good engineering and strict maintenance that play a larger role in the definition of "quality".
Besides, most car owners sell or trade before the 200K mark, making that data point mostly irrelevant except for those who buy at the very low end of the marketplace. #consumerreports
10/27/09
I've driven more than one newish (<10k) rental "Mustang" that had broken crap on them. #consumerreports
10/27/09
10/28/09
11/03/09
10/27/09
This is a CNBC guy (who knows nothing about cars) reporting about a study by Consumer Reports (who know nothing about cars.)
I gotta take anything either entity says with a microbe hanging off of a grain of salt, even if it swung in GM's or Chrysler's favor.
10/27/09
Are you insinuating the availability of capital when Ford wanted but not for GM/Chrysler soon after has more to do with their lack of bailout than their brilliant autos and marketing genius? #consumerreports
10/27/09
10/27/09
10/27/09
10/27/09
10/27/09
10/27/09
10/27/09
A Ford built in Mexico is extremely American, if you mean "North American" and not "from the USA". #consumerreports
10/30/09
10/30/09
10/27/09
10/27/09
10/27/09
Unfortunately for Ford, CR is not quite saying that. Some Ford models are doing well and getting recommendations, but they're dragged down by unreliable models. In the survey, Scion's the most reliable nameplate, with cars ranging from about 32-60% more reliable than average, followed by Honda (18-84%), then Toyota (minus 8 worse than average to 78%). Ford comes in 16th (minus 110-57%), Mercury 10th (minus 13 - 54%) and Lincoln 20th (minus 70 - 55%).
The graph is interesting. Buy a subscription to see it, if CR steers you away from one overpriced unreliable appliance it's paid for itself. #consumerreports
10/27/09
Scion's cars IMHO are ugly and underpowered. I'd rather have a GTI with all the electrical problems than be caught dead in one of 'em.
I think that you referring to a car as an "appliance" sums it up. I don't buy transportation, I buy a feeling, the unbridled glee of having something different, odd perhaps, that maybe takes some skill or talent to keep running. How the hec am I supposed to be a Jalop if my cars always run perfect?
10/27/09
10/27/09
10/27/09
RWD > FWD.
EDIT: Oh, SURE, give me an edit button NOW on a post that DOESN'T NEED IT. Excellent.
10/27/09
Consumer Reports? Never mind, not even useful as birdcage liner. #consumerreports
10/27/09
Complete the circle and sell the Lions. #consumerreports