I'm a live-and-let-live kind of guy. If other folks want more horsepower, they should have it if they want to pay for it. What bothers me is that today there is a much lower selection of high-mileage cars than even in the early 1990s. For example, I'd like to see a contemporary replacement for my 1991 Honda Civic wagon. It doesn't exist.
I either have to move down market to a much smaller Fit, or up to a CRV.
I don't want to do either. Nor is the lower gas mileage of a Matrix or Impreza very appealing despite the added safety features over my 1991 Civic. Nor do I want the added weight and complexity of a Prius.
I also don't need all of the supposedly "must-have" bells and whistles such as power windows. Give me something light, simple and versatile with gas mileage at least in the mid-30s -- without having to switch to a hybrid.
Obviously the author is right that if we put 2009 engines/drivetrains in 1980 cars fuel economy would improve more than it did in the last 29 years. If you add the increased aerodynamics the change would even be more dramatic. But apparently that's not what consumers want. And consumers get what they want. Capitalism you know. Apparently the 15% improvement over the last 29 years was enough for them. If you were to argue that it isn't enough the only thing to do is to increase fuel prices *ducks and runs*
What I don't get are the differences in lineup between Europe and the US. In Europe you can get 5-10 different engines per popular model. Like the Opel Insignia. Some slow and frugal, others fast and thirsty. So consumers can choose. From reading this site I get the impression the (relatively) slow and frugal engines aren't even available in the US, so consumers have less to choose from. #fueleconomy
@area_educator:
I've been thinking about doing just that for a long time. Buying an early eighties/late seventies Citroën with a deceased engine, and replacing that engine with something very recent with 150% of the power and 75% of fuel consumption. Too bad my wrenching experience doesn't go much further than changing fluids, and my toolbox doesn't contain much more than a hammer. Luckily there's nothing you cannot fix with a hammer. #fueleconomy
@duurtlang: Yeah, there isn't really any choice here. The few cars that are available here usually only come with one engine, sometimes with one or two options available. I can't quite fathom why, except that consumers don't really understand what they need from their cars.
Also, because gas is so cheap that it doesn't make any sense to buy an efficient vehicle. #fueleconomy
That was just absolutely egregious, and really makes me think that the guy is truly just talking out of his ass in an utterly biased way.
I mean, seriously; you never use the first person in any professional paper. Isn't that the first thing that we learned inn 8th grade English class? #fueleconomy
@pauljones: Not that I don't think that the author missed a few things, but that was the abstract, not the paper itself. This concerns the author's motivations and one almost have to use "I". #fueleconomy
My 100hp 2004 Golf TDI gets 40mpg. My mom's new 140hp 2009 Jetta TDI gets 40mpg. As a consumer, I'd have preferred a 100hp 2009 Jetta that gets even more than 40mpg.
Americans are far too worried about 0-60 times and "merging on the highway". When's the last time anyone needed to go 0-60 in 4.5 seconds? #fueleconomy
@JanDuKretijn: You do score a lot of Jalop points for the TDI. I'm guessing they are stick too. Bonus points if your golf is only 2 doors.
However, let me ask you this: Would you rather have that 100hp jetta with 40+ mpg, and a cup of coffee to stay awake, or 200hp, 35mpg, and a lot of fun? #fueleconomy
@JanDuKretijn: You're talking about getting to 60 in over or under 10 seconds with those cars, not 5. And don't confuse an acceleration metric for a real world test. 0-60 times are used to compare cars, to give people an idea of what the acceleration of the vehicle is, not because it's a common thing to do. Car and Driver also times 30-50 mph times and other acceleration metrics to give a complete picture, especially in real world conditions. #fueleconomy
@JanDuKretijn: Regardless, they're both needlessly complex piles of German over-engineering that are nearly impossible to work on without $4,000 worth of specialty tools. #fueleconomy
@Heavern2: I just can't understand why every one seems to think that more HP = more fun?
I'm not saying HPs are not a pleasure, but there are so many other important variables. Light weight is almost always more important to driving enjoyment. It's not even going fast (in absolute terms) that's pleasurable, it's going fast in terms of the vehicle. More power than the chassis can handle, now that is fun! I assure you that the driver of a 35hp A-H Sprite is always grinning a lot more than someone in a 500hp übermobile with 19 inch wheels and electronics galore.
And, since traffic can accomodate lumbering buses and trucks, a merge in a well-driven Citroën 2CV is rarely a problem. The problem is the idiot in the AMG ML55 that won't use the go-pedal and is attempting to merge at 30mph lower than traffic.
Edited by Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est at 11/17/09 2:04 PM
Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est was starred
Mr.choppers - Delenda Carthago Est was unstarred
A 1957 Chevrolet weighs in at 3269 lbs, a Honda CIVIC (smaller car) weighs in at only 400 lbs less (2806 lbs) a Toyota Camry weighs in HEAVIER then a 1957 Chevrolet (3307 lbs).
Whats funnier yet is many of those cars don't weigh much more (some even less; see example above) than the current cars after you add the frilly heated seats, nav systems, stereos, airbags, power this and that.
People forget all those 'luxuries' and mandated safety items add weight and decrease gas mileage.
@jeepfreak: Those things certainly add weight, but the bulk of the heft comes in the structure and safety systems. Take this crash for instance between a '59 Bel Air (which quite fairly represents you're '57) and a 2009 Malibu.
According to the IIHS, the driver of the Bel Air would've died instantly. The Malibu driver would've walked away. #fueleconomy
Improvements in fuel economy since 1980 were also offset by the fact that we're all getting fatter; I can't believe the authors of this study would overlook such an important factor.
/ducks #fueleconomy
As much as I am disgusted by model bloat, added features, and unnecessary complexities, I have to agree: the results are horseshit.
A brand-new vehicle with comparable interior room and luggage capacity to my dad's old Citation, bought new back in 1980, delivers both better fuel economy and a radically improved driving experience. To say that the cruise control, myriad airbags and magnitudes-different engineering that goes into the intrusion prevention door beams, traction control and brake lockup prevention don't keep the fuel economy down would be to look through the wrong end of the telescope. By that same token, to say the fuel economy would be so much better if it weren't for all that added weight, is to block the telescope before looking through it.
Things are better than they were, all around. Certain aspects could be much, much better, yes. But that would come at the expense of the improvement in other areas. This is the whole package. #fueleconomy
While this (and every damn study ever done) is basically propaganda, it's not entirely false. We have so much more crap stuffed into our ever burgeoning cars that are cranking out more than adequate horsepower than we could have ever imagined 20 years ago. The poster child for this silliness is the current generation of diesel pickups that have been tuned for ultimate power vs. overall economy. Sure I can now pull my neighbors house off it's foundation at idle, but can only achieve <10MPG while doing it. The point that I think everyone is missing is the fact that we could quite easily be driving 100MPG+ non-hybrid cars if we WANTED to. Problem is, nobody does. Imagine the economy you'd see in a 1980 Corolla with today's tech. All of the efforts going into hybrid technology, fuel cells, etc. are flawed in that we're trying to have our cake and eat it too. If all of the greenies were really committed to saving the world they'd be driving around in cars appropriate for their needs (proportionate to the number of people and amount of cargo they actually transport) and with sufficient power and features to get them from point A to point B in safety and relative comfort. Boom. Done. Problem solved. No crazy, overbaked technology with questionable longevity. No long term waste disposal issues or environmental impacts.
And as I put the flame suit on...my daily driver is a far-from-stock Mustang GT that I beat the living crap out of with no regard for my "carbon footprint." I'm simply making the point that the general crux of the abstract presented is not baseless. #fueleconomy
Most of your argument is good but you probably should have left diesel pickups out of it.
EVERY single diesel pickup that is sold in the US is a Heavy Duty (one ton or better). These are WORK trucks that are supposed to be able to pull a house off its foundation or pull a fifth wheel or horse trailer.
The trucks that the rest of us "supposed" to use (I acknowledge that many folks buy more truck than they need) are all gas (petrol) fueled trucks. There is currently NO diesel option on any half ton or smaller truck.
From a truck perspective, I think the bigger problem is that Ford is the only manufacturer that offers a truly small pickup (Ranger) but even that is destined to die in the next year or so. Ford just announced that the international version of the Ranger (also a small pickup) is not coming to the US. All other so called "small" pickups have gotten so big that they are as large full size pickups from the '90s. #fueleconomy
@SgtBeavis: EVERY single diesel pickup that is sold in the US is a Heavy Duty (one ton or better). These are WORK trucks that are supposed to be able to pull a house off its foundation or pull a fifth wheel or horse trailer.
I will respectfully, vehemently disagree with that statement. I live in Central Indiana (not terribly redneck), and the number of jacked-up, useless-as-work-vehicles 1-ton pickup trucks with rabbit-ear stacks and 36" Mickey Thompson's I see running around is amazing. None of these are used or useful for anything resembling work, few are taken farther off road than the front yard, and if any ever pull a trailer, they have to have a 12"+ drop for the hitch ball to keep the trailer bumper from scraping. As far as pulling houses off of foundations, I'm sure they have the torque, but the owners would never consider it because they may scratch the paint (truck, not house). #fueleconomy
11/18/09
I read that as "but when you leave out the obvious driver weight, the whole affair is suspect."
11/18/09
I either have to move down market to a much smaller Fit, or up to a CRV.
I don't want to do either. Nor is the lower gas mileage of a Matrix or Impreza very appealing despite the added safety features over my 1991 Civic. Nor do I want the added weight and complexity of a Prius.
I also don't need all of the supposedly "must-have" bells and whistles such as power windows. Give me something light, simple and versatile with gas mileage at least in the mid-30s -- without having to switch to a hybrid.
Please? #fueleconomy
11/17/09
11/17/09
Sorry, I am more interested in this. #fueleconomy
11/17/09
11/17/09
11/17/09
What I don't get are the differences in lineup between Europe and the US. In Europe you can get 5-10 different engines per popular model. Like the Opel Insignia. Some slow and frugal, others fast and thirsty. So consumers can choose. From reading this site I get the impression the (relatively) slow and frugal engines aren't even available in the US, so consumers have less to choose from. #fueleconomy
11/17/09
New hobby! #fueleconomy
11/17/09
I've been thinking about doing just that for a long time. Buying an early eighties/late seventies Citroën with a deceased engine, and replacing that engine with something very recent with 150% of the power and 75% of fuel consumption. Too bad my wrenching experience doesn't go much further than changing fluids, and my toolbox doesn't contain much more than a hammer. Luckily there's nothing you cannot fix with a hammer. #fueleconomy
11/17/09
Also, because gas is so cheap that it doesn't make any sense to buy an efficient vehicle. #fueleconomy
11/17/09
11/17/09
Also, "Honda is the most efficient manufacturer for both passenger cars." Really? Both passenger cars?
UBER FAIL #fueleconomy
11/17/09
That was just absolutely egregious, and really makes me think that the guy is truly just talking out of his ass in an utterly biased way.
I mean, seriously; you never use the first person in any professional paper. Isn't that the first thing that we learned inn 8th grade English class? #fueleconomy
11/17/09
11/17/09
How about:
"It can also be shown that once technological progress is considered, meeting the CAFE Standards..."
or
"This paper also identifies that once technological progress..."
Using the first person, even in an abstract, has a sophomoric feel to it. #fueleconomy
11/17/09
11/17/09
Americans are far too worried about 0-60 times and "merging on the highway". When's the last time anyone needed to go 0-60 in 4.5 seconds? #fueleconomy
11/17/09
11/17/09
However, let me ask you this: Would you rather have that 100hp jetta with 40+ mpg, and a cup of coffee to stay awake, or 200hp, 35mpg, and a lot of fun? #fueleconomy
11/17/09
11/17/09
11/17/09
11/17/09
I'm not saying HPs are not a pleasure, but there are so many other important variables. Light weight is almost always more important to driving enjoyment. It's not even going fast (in absolute terms) that's pleasurable, it's going fast in terms of the vehicle. More power than the chassis can handle, now that is fun! I assure you that the driver of a 35hp A-H Sprite is always grinning a lot more than someone in a 500hp übermobile with 19 inch wheels and electronics galore.
And, since traffic can accomodate lumbering buses and trucks, a merge in a well-driven Citroën 2CV is rarely a problem. The problem is the idiot in the AMG ML55 that won't use the go-pedal and is attempting to merge at 30mph lower than traffic.
11/17/09
If it weren't for the Porsche badge, I'd say a Mustang Mach III had a terrible reaction...possibly to production greenlights. #fueleconomy
11/17/09
Whats funnier yet is many of those cars don't weigh much more (some even less; see example above) than the current cars after you add the frilly heated seats, nav systems, stereos, airbags, power this and that.
People forget all those 'luxuries' and mandated safety items add weight and decrease gas mileage.
11/17/09
11/17/09
According to the IIHS, the driver of the Bel Air would've died instantly. The Malibu driver would've walked away. #fueleconomy
11/17/09
/ducks #fueleconomy
11/17/09
A brand-new vehicle with comparable interior room and luggage capacity to my dad's old Citation, bought new back in 1980, delivers both better fuel economy and a radically improved driving experience. To say that the cruise control, myriad airbags and magnitudes-different engineering that goes into the intrusion prevention door beams, traction control and brake lockup prevention don't keep the fuel economy down would be to look through the wrong end of the telescope. By that same token, to say the fuel economy would be so much better if it weren't for all that added weight, is to block the telescope before looking through it.
Things are better than they were, all around. Certain aspects could be much, much better, yes. But that would come at the expense of the improvement in other areas. This is the whole package. #fueleconomy
11/17/09
Look at the "unemployment number". Totally. Worthless. Statistic. #fueleconomy
11/17/09
And as I put the flame suit on...my daily driver is a far-from-stock Mustang GT that I beat the living crap out of with no regard for my "carbon footprint." I'm simply making the point that the general crux of the abstract presented is not baseless. #fueleconomy
11/17/09
Most of your argument is good but you probably should have left diesel pickups out of it.
EVERY single diesel pickup that is sold in the US is a Heavy Duty (one ton or better). These are WORK trucks that are supposed to be able to pull a house off its foundation or pull a fifth wheel or horse trailer.
The trucks that the rest of us "supposed" to use (I acknowledge that many folks buy more truck than they need) are all gas (petrol) fueled trucks. There is currently NO diesel option on any half ton or smaller truck.
From a truck perspective, I think the bigger problem is that Ford is the only manufacturer that offers a truly small pickup (Ranger) but even that is destined to die in the next year or so. Ford just announced that the international version of the Ranger (also a small pickup) is not coming to the US. All other so called "small" pickups have gotten so big that they are as large full size pickups from the '90s. #fueleconomy
11/17/09
I will respectfully, vehemently disagree with that statement. I live in Central Indiana (not terribly redneck), and the number of jacked-up, useless-as-work-vehicles 1-ton pickup trucks with rabbit-ear stacks and 36" Mickey Thompson's I see running around is amazing. None of these are used or useful for anything resembling work, few are taken farther off road than the front yard, and if any ever pull a trailer, they have to have a 12"+ drop for the hitch ball to keep the trailer bumper from scraping. As far as pulling houses off of foundations, I'm sure they have the torque, but the owners would never consider it because they may scratch the paint (truck, not house). #fueleconomy
11/17/09
11/17/09