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Ferdinand Porsche - Genesis Of Genius by Karl Ludvigsen
Glory Days: When Horsepower and Passion Ruled Detroit, by Jim Wangers
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Novaload
10/04/09

In reply to Ferdinand Porsche - Genesis Of Genius by Karl Ludvigsen
One of these days Germany will have to come to terms with its past.
And speaking of Nazis, and cars, Henry Ford, anyone?
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brandegee
10/05/09

@Novaload: Where Ford's angle seemed to be outright bigotry, Porsche seemed to be a naive engineer caught up in a system he neither cared for nor was particularly disgusted by. For example, he is known to have complained about working conditions in the VW wartime factory, of which he was the head for a time, but we don't know whether this was out of compassion or out of concerns for productivity.

And there was also a nasty question about whether the some children of the forced laborers at this factory were deliberately killed. He may have been too busy testing Kubelwagens and designing tank engines to notice.

He did pay for his efforts with some time in a cozy French lockup, but deft finagling by family and friends sprung him out before the ultimate vengeance could take root.
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Flathead Smith
10/04/09

In reply to Ferdinand Porsche - Genesis Of Genius by Karl Ludvigsen
I will say this about ole Ferdinand, it is my understanding that he never did join the Nazi party, and that is quite an accomplishment when you consider the day. We like to say that we would have left Germany if faced with such a thing as the Nazi party, but remember it was a matter of incrementalism. In other words it was a situation that took years to devolve into what occurred under Hitler that I would argue started not in 1933, when he came to power, but probably started many years before. By the time Germany became a nightmare, it was nearly too late for anyone to stand a say, "this is wrong". A very few did and died, most just kept there mouths shut, for they thought it was too late, or were involved intimately with the horrible machine.

Here is good article about an everyday man named Franz Jagerstatter. He was abandoned by all except his wife, but he stood his ground and was executed by guillotine.

[en.wikipedia.org]

[www.catholicpeacefellowship.org]

A majority of the population when faced with someone like Hitler will give in to save his life, rather than take a chance and be destroyed. My question to you is this, what would you do?
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mechimike
10/04/09

@Flathead Smith: I see creeping elements of this mentality in our political system here in the U.S.S.A. While some may scoff and sneer at my paranoia, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

I like to keep them in the refrigerator. Keeps the powder dry and the action quicker.
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powermatic
10/04/09

@Flathead Smith: Ferdinand may or may not have belonged to the Nazi party (I've read accounts that have him joining in 1937) but there's no doubt that he worked closely and often with Hitler personally on civilian and military designs, and went along with the use of slave labor in his industrial plants. The guy was no saint-not by any stretch of the imagination, whether or not he officially belonged to the party or not. Others in Germany (including non-Jews) saw the upcoming rise of the military dictatorship and fought against it-Porsche was very much not one of those people, and isn't really to be congratulated for anything from a humanitarian, or courage in the face of adversity, basis.
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Flathead Smith
10/05/09

@powermatic: This is true, and by working closely with Hitler he helped to further the Nazi party more than many. I’m sure if you asked him why he did, his excuse would not have been much different than the general population. In fact, some of the original concept drawings of the VW Beetle came from ole Adolph himself, which he probably copied, see my next posting.
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Flathead Smith
10/05/09

Something kind of interesting about the Volkswagen is that there is good evidence that the idea of the car, and even the Volkswagen name, probably came from a man named Josef Ganz, a Jew. This car was first shown at a car show in 1933, at which Hitler was present. Ganz was arrested within the year and charged with blackmail, by the Gestapo, for attempting to protect his patent rights.
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tonyola
10/04/09

In reply to Ferdinand Porsche - Genesis Of Genius by Karl Ludvigsen
Wonder if there is to be a second book by Ludvigsen covering Porsche's later career? If so, let's hope it's honest about his relationships with the Nazis. If there is no second book, then there are too many questions left unanswered.

In 1932, Porsche visited the USSR and the Soviets offered him a high ministry position with extremely generous perks and basically a blank check for vehicle development. Porsche turned it down, but what if it was Stalin rather than Hitler who sponsored and pushed the Volkswagen?
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skitter
10/04/09

@tonyola: Bereft of their bugs and microbuses, what would hippies and impoverished university types have driven? Though slow to recognize a market, with markedly less competition and more incentive before the Malaise, the American auto industry might have taken a very different path. And without the 911, what target would every other manufacturer gun for while simultaneously deriding its layout? What car would we long for while mocking its demographic? There are many that fit the mold, but none with the longevity. The NSX still would have happened, British Leyland would have died regardless, leaving, in my mind, only Alfa Romeo with the potential to bridge the MGs and the Maseratis.
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tonyola
10/04/09

@skitter: The USSR was never really big on personal transportation for its citizens - don't want the masses scooting around all over the place unsupervised, you know. A People's Car for the Soviet people probably wouldn't have gotten very far. For export, however, it might have been a completely different story. The USSR was always looking for a way to get hard western currency, and flooding Europe with cheap People's Cars subsidized by the State might have been an effective means to get that currency. The USSR was still seemingly relatively benign to many people in the west until the late 1930s, and even afterwards, forced to choose between supporting the Nazis and the Soviets, many would have gone with the latter. In addition, Porsche's talent would have greatly benefited the Soviet war machine during WWII.
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Edited by tonyola at 10/04/09 4:56 PM tonyola was starred tonyola was unstarred

skitter
10/04/09

@tonyola: Very true, but the US markets still would have been fundamentally altered. American beliefs were not so much free market or capitalist, but anti-USSR. Trading with 'the communists' was out of the question.
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RMcG
10/04/09

In reply to Ferdinand Porsche - Genesis Of Genius by Karl Ludvigsen
Its a superb book. I got the limited edition last year. Very impressive if you are a Porsche nut.
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gallahad
10/04/09

In reply to Ferdinand Porsche - Genesis Of Genius by Karl Ludvigsen
It does seem weird that they would leave out the Nazi years, not because of the "zomg he worked for the Nazis" thing (since, as I understand, what he did for them was no different than what Chevy, Ford, et al did for the US war effort), but because it's another -- and very different -- phase of engineering for a very gifted engineer. Maybe he had things to say about the Fuhrer, but what about technical feats he might have pulled off for the war machine?
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bozoerrebbe
10/04/09

@gallahad: Porsche's relationship with the Nazi regime was a bit closer than that of American industry to the FDR administration and the war effort.

To begin with, Porsche worked with Hitler as early as 1934, long before the war, when the engineer took the Nazi leader's commission to design the KDF-Wagen, what became known as the VW Beetle. The KDF program, ostensibly to provide German workers with automobiles, was really a Nazi scam, and few if any workers got the cars they'd paid for with paycheck deductions. I don't know exactly when Dr. Porsche got the idea that the VW platform would make a good utility vehicle for the Wehrmacht, but before many KDFWagens could be built, the factory was changed over to produce the Jeep-like Kubelwagen. During the war, Porsche designed other weapons, including the main battle tanks for the German army.

Yes, Detroit was the arsenal of democracy and Chrysler built tanks, Ford built bombers (and jeeps), and GM ended up building the Saturn V if I'm not mistaken. But Dr. Porsche seemed a bit too eager to work with the Nazis for my tastes. YMMV

Ironically, just as Ludvigsen's book on Dr. Porsche is released, so is Dutch engineer Paul Schilperoord's work Het Ware Verhaal van de Kever: hoe Hitler het ontwerp van een Joods genie confisqueerde, The True Story of the Beetle: how Hitler confiscated the design of a Jewish genius, about Josef Ganz, whose design for the Volkswagen may have been stolen by Hitler and used by Porsche.

[www.ganz-volkswagen.org]

Here's the 1934 Standard Superior, based on Ganz' design.
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gallahad
10/05/09

@bozoerrebbe: Huh. The more you know :)
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Murilee Martin
06/15/09

In reply to Glory Days: When Horsepower and Passion Ruled Detroit, by Jim Wangers
Nobody noticed the Powerglide column shifter on a GTO? How rare are those today?
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clinto
06/14/09

In reply to Glory Days: When Horsepower and Passion Ruled Detroit, by Jim Wangers
I am the only one who Wangers rubs the wrong way? When I see interviews with him on car shows, he just seems.... I don't know, unlikable.

Perhaps it's that he does come across as an adman and not a die-hard enthusiast like us.
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Ford Tempo Fanatic
06/14/09

In reply to Glory Days: When Horsepower and Passion Ruled Detroit, by Jim Wangers
I am angered by the title of his book.
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A strolling player
06/14/09

@FordTempoFan: Now with 30 Points!: Well, sure, horsepower wasn't exactly a member of the ruling class when your car was built!
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Ford Tempo Fanatic
06/14/09

@Ambiguously Strolling Player: That is just it! I stand firm in my belief the glory days of passion from Detroit was a period between 1984 and 1991. While I like Big Block Muscle as much as the next guy, I do not have the same respect for the original Mustang or GTO that I do for the 1986 Taurus and 1984 Tempo. Any automaker can make a big engine mated to a three speed automatic, it takes a little bit of work to get over 200HP power from an engine that in 1965 would have made two digit power figures. I'm looking at you, straight six Firebird.
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Six Flags Over Tomsk
06/16/09

@FordTempoFan: Now with 30 Points!: As a Pontiac OHC six fan, I hereby bestow upon you a hypothetical heart re-click.
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Mad_Science
06/14/09

In reply to Glory Days: When Horsepower and Passion Ruled Detroit, by Jim Wangers
The SPacer had potential!
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Novaload
06/14/09

In reply to Glory Days: When Horsepower and Passion Ruled Detroit, by Jim Wangers
And still fab, all these years later--this is the one that periodically parks on the street near work:

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.357
06/14/09

In reply to Glory Days: When Horsepower and Passion Ruled Detroit, by Jim Wangers
Great read. I'll stop by Albion Lbrary and see if they have it.
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.357
06/14/09

In reply to Glory Days: When Horsepower and Passion Ruled Detroit, by Jim Wangers
OMG, I am going 2 get dat on my Kindle. Its soo worth da mony. U guys need 2 chek outt my Twitter.

(Sorry guys, I was inspired by Mr. LeMons Troll to try my own.) How would you rate it out of 5?
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Pete Gaines
06/14/09

@Ambiguously Unfunny Serial Killer: Hmm, so this means Penn Jillette's Twitter messages about his new Kindle (seriously) means he's a frat boy?

I don't quite think you get it.
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.357
06/14/09

@Pete Gaines: I'm a horrible troll. I should stick to being Jalopnik's resident unfunny asshole.
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ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNO-TOAD
06/14/09

@Ambiguously Unfunny Serial Killer: Well yeah, now that bloodcrappy's gone there's not much trolling to be done.
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Murilee Martin
06/14/09

@darkstar: Do I need to go ban some trolls? Who? Where?
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.357
06/14/09

@Murilee Martin: Not here, officer.
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