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Detroit, 1:16 AM
Mon Nov 16
12 posts in the last 24 hours
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12/14/08
"Worse than Detroit?"
"I'm afraid so. "
12/12/08
12/14/08
Only insofar as they buy them like any other consumer. However, they DO have quite a bit of responsibility for oversupply, due to contract obligations which the UAW has with the Big Three.
And as you will remember from economics class, oversupply always reduces demand. So they do bear quite a bit of responsibility for the current straits which the industry finds itself in.
12/12/08
But the rest of us schmucks are getting screwed while the Southern Conservatives try and bend the UAW over because they support the left. We need a union to protect us from the unions, and a constitutional amendment requiring all elected officials to be fitted with a shock collar that can be activated by any constituent whenever they act like a butthole.
It seems like while these ass-breaths fight their little fights and puff out their chests in indignation over how things are said rather than listening to the people who entrusted them with these important decisions, we're all planning on telling the kids that maybe next year the holidays won't suck.
I don't want to give the automakers free money so they can keep the board of directors in Bourbon and Hookers, but I don't want to see 3 million line workers, engineers and other folks just trying to get by thrown out of work due to some petty battle between the UAW and the GOP. Knowhatamean?
12/12/08
Nice tirade.
I am in complete agreement.
12/14/08
There. Fixed that for you.
12/12/08
According to the Associated press in the NY Times:
"A $14 billion emergency bailout for U.S. automakers collapsed in the Senate Thursday night after the United Auto Workers refused to accede to Republican demands for swift wage cuts.
The collapse came after bipartisan talks on the auto rescue broke down over GOP demands that the United Auto Workers union agree to steep wage cuts by 2009 to bring their pay into line with Japanese carmakers."
12/14/08
12/12/08
I get the republicans disdain over UAW power in elections, but this is asenine. Every day I distance myself more and more from that party as they continue to align with nonsense (religion...not that religion is nonsense, but some of the far right...well you know what I mean) and BS like this.
Further, for everyone else on here angry and criticizing the UAW, WHAT THE HELL FOR?
IT DOES NOT COST YOU MORE IN THE CAR.
IT IS AMERICAN WAGES THAT GOES INTO OUR ECONOMY, AND UPHOLDS THE MIDDLE CLASS. The middle class is what seperates us from worse places to live. If we want to go further to haves and have-nots, continue bitching about people doing VERY HARD work for a living wage.
WOULD YOU RATHER THAT "EXTRA GRAND" GO TO JAPAN AS PURE WEALTH LEAVING THE USA????? They most definitely are not selling at a discount because their labor is lower.
This BULLSHIT ranting against the UAW is flat out stupid for all involved. So unless you are management with the Big 3 who's profits are directly impacted (but they know the deal and this isn't the problem, THEY are fine with the UAW's current deal and givebacks) SHUT UP, you are whining out of jealousy and spite.
(as a caveat, I am not a union employee, or proponent, I just know what the real problems are)
12/12/08
12/12/08
You see, back in the day the Canadian and American autoworker's unions were the same. GM decided to play some hardball and split the unions. The way they accomplished this was with health care.
Health care is a basic human right, and I'm appalled that people would think that any union isn't within their rights to ensure that their members have adequate access to health care. Particularily after they have retired when they are going to need it most.
I just can't believe that they managed to scapegoat this entire thing onto the unions. At a time when people are desperate for stability they manage to eliminate it, and then pass the blame on.
Just don't compare the price of averting a depression with the cost of these wars whatever you do. You'll be sickened.
12/12/08
How on earth is "health care a basic human right"? Earn it or don't have it.
12/12/08
12/12/08
This is why I can't stand politics.
12/12/08
BTW, is the first line of text hidden behind the video for anyone else?
12/12/08
They're ALL evil, man..
12/12/08
If they are all evil, and they are all put into power by us, is this not a damning reflection of ourselves that we are seeing in the mirror?
12/12/08
12/12/08
But, somebody's got to do the job. All we can do is try to keep the leash taught.
12/12/08
12/12/08
12/12/08
Considering that a leash is literally, figuratively, and symbolically an inanimate object, I would say that it isn't capable of learning much at all.
Ad for how much can be learned by those holding the leash, well, I suppose time will tell.
12/12/08
Unfortunately, it seems to be only simple tools that want to do the complex jobs in DC. Makes for slow progress.
12/12/08
Nice play.
Nooze 1, Beercheck 0
12/12/08
Oh.
When I saw Beercheck's post, I couldn't figure out what the hell he was talking about. Then I stared at it for a few moments and at last noticed the misspelling.
I will come off my philosophical herbs now and admit that I am an idiot.
Nooze: 2.
12/12/08
"In a democracy, the people get the gov't they deserve".
That's scary.
12/12/08
12/12/08
Yes it is.
And yet, it is such a simple truth that has been borne out time and again.
12/12/08
You get paid what your worth and if your position is no longer needed or you are not performing up to par your let go and you find a new job. thats life. get over it. if your not happy with your current position in life do something about it. Go to school get some professional training. Move.
Dont sit there and whine and cry about this. You dug your own grave. And as the saying goes, when you realize your in a hole the 1st thing to do is to stop digging.
If i was the D3 i would let the UAW strike and hire new workers, offer the old UAW workers jobs with REALISTIC compensation.
12/12/08
12/12/08
$65,000 is $1,250 per week. Taxes are (around) $225 for Federal, $20 for Medicare, $85 for SS, and for the state around $75. Take at least 5% for a retirement plan ($60) and you are left with about $785 per week.
Now for the usual bills. For my 1,900 sq ft colonial I have $1,350 Mortgage (including Insurance and escrow for property tax and FEMA insurance), $105 for electricity, $41 for Natural Gas, $37 for AT&T, $10 for city water and sewer services, $100 for Cable internet and television. That's $1,643 not including fuel oil delivery (3 times a year), property taxes on other personal property (like the car), or food, which are anywhere from $90 to $200 per week depending upon what the needs are. The food includes things like hygienic supplies, cleaning supplies, and other misc items like paper.
It doesn't leave a lot, and I'm only one person... I can't imagine raising a family in this environment. Not everyone is going to college, and we need skilled trades people. People who worked in Supermarkets, Drug Stores, and Factories once could afford a home and a good living. I guess it's going to be the start of class warfare, and soon.
12/12/08
12/12/08
Evidently nobody who isn't well-educated "deserves" those things, like food and a house. This is really becoming rediculous. I'm not "pro union", but I can see what is and is not the problem here, and they sure aren't.
12/12/08
12/12/08
12/12/08
If $130k isn't enough, cut back on expenses. And if that still isn't enough, find a new job that'll pay more. It's how things work.
12/12/08
12/12/08
im not saying its right or wrong they you need 2 incomes to survive...but thats how it is. you can bitch and moan about it not be "fair" or you can just expect it and do what you need to to survive.
also understand a "house and nice things" are not a right. you seem to think everyone should be entitled to them because they have a full time job. the reality is some people probably wont be able to afford the things they want. some people understand this and some people dont which is why there are so many home foreclosures right now. people live outside there means.
In 2007, the median annual household income was $50,233.00. does anyone know the average TAKE HOME pay of a UAW Worker?
12/12/08
12/12/08
Ok i did some research. the average UAW worker makes about $28/hr. assuming a 40hr work week and 52 weeks a year thats $58,240 per year.
Now if you take into account their health benefit package the pay rate goes up to $38/hr which puts the income up to $79,040 per year.
Median earnings of men who worked full time, year-round was $45,113. I cant seem to find anything on the value of a benefits package for the average person. although if anything its going to COST them money. ~$7600.
so if SOMEONE out there can help me understand why the average UAW worker should be making ~$15,000 more per year then everyone else i would love to hear it. This doesnt take into account the health care stuff because i cant find an apples to apples comparison. but i guess it could be as much as $33,000 difference per year.
UAW pay rate is from this article-
[www.associatedcontent.com]
Household income based on this article -
[en.wikipedia.org]
healthcare info from here
[www.nchc.org]
12/12/08
Since when "should" anyone make any amount of money? Employers offer a rate, employees have an option to take it or hold out.
Fact of the matter is, Unions are a tactic that give workers more bargaining power for higher wages. They play the game to get what they can.
On the flipside, executive management fooked up in making too many concessions over the years. They're big boys, they had the option to dig in and fight, but they didn't. Thus, an unsustainable "norm" was established.
Now, as the inevitable plays out, the UAW is wondering why so many that they've fought all these years might want to go out of their way to eliminate them.
Also, Gettlefinger's panicking b/c if GM goes into Chapter 11, they lose a lot of bargaining power. As I understand it, the judge can wipe out all kinds of obligations (job pool) with the swipe of a pen.
12/12/08
12/12/08
I base my assumption of what the value of the position on the fact that its largely an unskilled job. maybe some basic training on the equipment for a week or two and your good to go. i dont see this as a specialized type of work. IE- anyone can do it so its not really valuable so why should they get $60,000 a year?
i agree whole heartily that the upper management really messed up and should have never let things get this out of control. hell i wish i was UAW worker, thats a lot of coin and i can understand why they dont want to give it up. But the reality of this situation right now is either you get your compensation inline with what is realistic or your out of a job. its really that simple.
i would also clean out all the upper management as well.
12/12/08
Now with an alternative ending!
12/12/08
12/12/08
You're kidding, right?
Anyone who wants to be in college should be in college. The desire to learn is reason enough, and that has nothing to do with whatever the common perception of manual labor is.
12/12/08
There is no "should". Only supply, demand, and bargaining.
You're worth what someone is willing to pay you.
Apparently GM is/was willing to overpay these guys or they would've put up a bigger fight. (Or it was their mistake not to).
Don't get me wrong. It's obvious these guys' compensation is out of line with similar jobs. I'm just saying it's GM's (and others') fault as much as their own.
12/12/08
For the record, I don't want ANYONE to lose a job over this whole mess. I just want the D3 to be put in a position where they could kick the UAW out, and get things to a level playing field.
"It's so cold in the D!"
12/12/08
12/12/08
In a non-coercive transaction, both parties bear equal responsibility for the outcome.
Having put that to rest, my take on the UAW as it pertains to today's hearings is that they're responsible in a long-term sense (like the executives), but there's not much they can do to un-do the role they played over the last 30 years.
12/12/08
But please, feel free to enlighten me on how everyone should be entitled to the American dream. I didn't say that everyone shouldn't have a roof over their head, becuase that's simply wrong. But not everyone gets a house. That's reality.
12/12/08
a. You worked hard enough in school to meet the entrance requirements.
AND b. You (or your family) are willing to make the financial sacrifice to get there. I know many people who worked their way through school w/o debt, so don't come back with some sob story about being financially disadvantaged.
12/12/08
Yeah, and I am one of them.
What I found interesting was his statement that some people just shouldn't go to college, and I disagree with that. Anyone who wants to should.
Where in my comment did you see the notion of "getting trough school without debt"?
12/12/08
12/12/08
For the last year and half, I supported both myself and my wife on $50k/year while she finished up college. We had enough to live off of. I can't imagine how much we would have had if I had made $65K/year.
The trick is we didn't spend money on stuff we didn't need. We didn't have cable internet and TV. We got the cheapest cell phone plans we could. We kept the thermostat up/down. I don't know WTF you're eating with a grocery bill of $400-$800/month but we could both eat for $200/month plus the cost of a gallon of milk or loaf of bread here or there.
And the biggest thing was we didn't buy a huge expensive house that we didn't need for just the 2 of us. We lived in an apartment. I'm sorry but if you're a household of one living in a 1900sq ft house with a $1350 mortgage payment, you're a fool.
Sell that house and buy something reasonable, cut the crap out of your budget and then come back complaining about how you can't make it....
12/12/08
Your attitude is exactly what the UAW workers have. This country's definition of "middle class" is wild. Being middle class doesn't mean you are entitled to expensive TV plans, new cars every few years, and eating out all of the time. How do you think this whole mortgage crisis happened? People thought they "deserved" more than they actually did, and took out loans to meet that unrealistic standard.
12/12/08
By the way, I never said I couldn't make it. It's just a bit of a struggle now. I live normally, pay the mortgage on time (since 1991), never refinanced, and never took out a home equity loan. The Electric Company just increased their rates 110%, the Gas Company just got approval to go up around 65%, and last year the house was re-evaluated upwards, making my property taxes go up. On top of that, because of what happened with Katrina, FEMA re-drew the flood maps, and now I am required to have Flood Insurance (at a cost of $1,500 per year).
Ahhh, but I have the joy of paying taxes for a school system I will never take advantage of. And of course reading all about you guys complaining about factory workers making too much money, while I don't hear a peep from any of you about how the Corporate CEO's, CFO's, CIO's, and Board Members make obscene amounts of money.
12/12/08
12/12/08
As was noted before, even if the unions agreed to work FOR FUCKING FREE, it wouldn't do anything about the issue at hand.
12/12/08
12/12/08
@Ray Wert: Hey, I didn't say they were addressing ALL the underlying problems. But, the last I heard (late last night), the plan did allow for paying some other non-productive worker costs with securities rather than cash.
12/12/08
12/12/08
12/12/08
12/12/08
12/12/08
12/12/08
12/12/08
12/12/08
As ever, though, I am certain that there is more background context than what is provided.
12/12/08
They brought us pain and misery
They killed our sales, they killed our way
They took our profits for their own need
We fought them hard we fought him well
With brand engineered cars all on the same shell
But many came too much for Three
Oh will we ever be set free?
Driving through dustclouds of Detroit wastes
0% financing and club-a-baby-seal-style rebates
Chasing the non-unionized labor back to their holes
Fighting fuel economy with bulk
Efficiency for bling a stab in the back
General and Ford and Chrysler attack
Run to the hills run for your lives
Run to the hills run for your lives
12/12/08
Golden Years, indeed.
12/12/08
12/12/08
12/12/08
See how stupid that sounds?
12/13/08
GM and Chrysler were in crisis before the market collapsed. I would assume that the death of the weak ones will assure the survival of the stronger ones (in the long run), but it will be a mess for a while.
Social democratic governments would like to avoid uncontrolled collapse of large corporations to minimize fallout and the suffering of citizens, but that doesn't seem to go over to well with the GOP.