I think a big problem is that Americans are still very spoiled with horsepower. 136HP is intolerable for most Americans, especially when buying a car from a luxury brand. Buying a car with the same engine from VW might be more acceptable, but not from Audi.
And the US divisions want to uphold this image of luxury which pretty much requires at least a V6 for them to have any credibility in this market. The 3-series BMW is available in Europe with a 2-liter 4-cylinder engine and the A4 is available with a 1.8, 160hp engine. It would be unheard of for them to offer such engines here, unless, perhaps gasoline jumped to $6+ a gallon.
@MaWeiTao: And the US divisions want to uphold this image of luxury which pretty much requires at least a V6
Big caveat here: 9/10 of all Audi A3 and A4 models are now sold with the turbo 4 (yesterday on Jalop). Surprised me, but also tells me that people aren't always hp- and cylinders-obsessed.
One issue I have with this engine start/stop feature, both on the Hybrids and now on this car. Doesn't starting and stopping the engine a) increase emission, and b) increase wear on the engine? Both of these seem sortof antithetical to the whole concept of "green" and saving money.
@mechimike: Same questions I had. Apparently they use a modified starter that's pretty beefy, and the emissions thing is supposedly moot with modern engine tech (except for that initial cold start). Still seems weird to me, but it's gaining popularity.
@Ash78: I'd imagine you still have to give the engine a little bit of enrichness to get it to catch again- may not matter much, and may be offset by the emissions of not running the engine at idle at a light. But I've heard say that you should shut the engine off if you're going to be stopped for more than 5 minutes, which would lead me to believe you should let it idle if its going to be much less than that. And most stop and go traffic still lets you "go" every minute or so.
As for the wear, again, its going to take some time for the oil pressure to get back up after shutoff...
@mechimike: Yeah, there's probably some break-even point with whether it's worth it. I'm skeptical, but remember reading something by some really smart people about diesels' thermal efficiency and how they're more amenable to being restarted once warm (even compared to gassers). And the extra lubricity of the fuel helps with the wear & tear.
It all sort of flies in the face of my ingrained desire NOT to cycle a car too many times each day (for longevity).
@petersterncan: Valid point, but it's akin to telling a Lexus HS buyer to just go ahead and get a Prius instead.
I could never rationally afford the Audi (new), and I drive too little to justify a diesel, but I love them anyway. I mostly just want to see this country get on a path to energy diversification. And if a luxury marque can do that with diesel, it could make a powerful statement.
@Ash78: Gasoline always goes up for the summer. Diesel doesn't. In fact, diesel tends to drop in states north of the Carolinas, due to heating oil being much the same thing.
We deserve this car. Priced between a Prius and a Volt, this would make for some difficult choices for some folks. Six speed front drive diesel wagon ought to rack up a few Jalop points.
But you'd have to swap out the low rolling resistance tires for something with some cornering sticktion.
Any idea on the torque figures? Acceleration isn't so vast.
And don't forget that diesel has more fuel value than gasoline, so the mpgs aren't directly comparable.
@Van Sarockin, rogue trebuchet: Diesel has an energy content of approximately 38.6 megajoules per litre, whereas gasoline's is only 34.9 MJ/l. So per unit volume (which is how it's sold and how fuel efficiency is measured), diesel has approximately 10 percent more energy. All other things being equal, you'd expect a car with a diesel engine to get 10% higher gas mileage than the same car powered by a gas engine.
The reality is that diesel engines have a number of other factors working in their favour (besides just slightly higher energy content per unit volume in the fuel), so the efficiency is quite a bit better. Maybe 5 MPG at most is attributable to the higher energy content of the fuel, so the TDI really is a much more efficient car than the non-TDI version.
Furthermore, diesel fuel requires less refinement and can be generated from non-petroleum-based feedstocks, making it a more efficient fuel overall.
@Chris Lawson: Thanks, Chris! Using this, it's possible to back off and decide what price differential between gas and diesel brings you to a balance point in the cost of fuel used. And also to evaluate the generally higher price of cars with diesel engines, given smaller production volumes, more expensive engine manufacturing costs, and higher service costs - when servicing is required.
All said, that Audi could be a sweet deal, and a nice ride.
Open note to Obama - plz sign an executive order exempting ALL...repeat, ALL diesel motors for passenger cars under 6,000 lbs GVWR from current local, state, and federal emissions restrictions.
1. Sign order establishing Euro emission standards for diesel passenger cars.
2. Negotiate with European, Japanese and Korean transportation/environment ministries to create common emission and safety standards for automobiles.
3. Start producing cars that can be sold worldwide without needing new front bumpers, different exhausts, etc.
Then you can get your A4 Avant TDI shipped to the US by just special ordering it. None of this redesign garbage. You want a Kei car? Order one, have it show up on your doorstep in a shipping crate :)
@Town of the Big House DLJ: I sincerely hope Obama wont read this note. The long term solution is electric. Diesel does not lead to a full electric car, Hybrids do. Therefore investing in diesel at this point is a waste of time and money. In Europe it is different, but only because Diesel became popular decades ago, but, like the rest of the world, also Europe knows that electric is the (near) future.
I spent last week traipsing about the English countryside. Spotting a series of Audi & BMW diesel wagons in the hotel parking lot sparked a drunken rant about the unavailability of such vehicles stateside and the piss-poor state of things when we can't get such a no-brainer as this. I'm fairly certain I used the words "fuck" and "cockknockers" a lot.
Who'da thunk that you could get Maker's Mark in North Yorkshire?
But is it Quattro? German station wagon with six speed and a diesel that gets outstanding fuel economy with all wheel drive would be Nirvana. Valhalla, Elysium, you get it.
Even if we could get one in the US, I wouldn't take one over the Fusion hybrid. If saving gas money is the goal, the Fusion hybrid, despite it getting lower EPA estimates, is the better choice seeing as diesel is vastly more expensive in the US than standard gasoline.
@pauljones: I think it's key that to remember that the goal in fuel economy is in the saving of $$. As you mention, with diesel fuel in the US and engines carrying a premium, it's hard to break even on a diesel passenger vehicle, much less save. The fusion would be the better choice with lower purchase and fuel price.
I think we have to hope for an algae diesel breakthrough to lower it to less than $1/Gallon.
@BoomhauerTX: If the goal is to save money, you would probably be better off just getting a gas-powered car if you're looking in the Fusion market segment. The premium of the hybrid version over the standard version takes several years (in some cases, virtually forever) to pay off.
If your goal is to "be green", you're better off with a diesel than a hybrid. When you look at the overall vehicle impact on the planet, the hybrid is fairly nasty.
@groovyone: On the West Coat, the premium for diesel is as high at 60 cents in some areas.
I really am too lazy to do an exact calculation, but an educated estimate tells me that for a California driver, the Ford Fusion Hybrid would make more sense the Audi.
Have you not read any of the reviews about the Ford Fusion Hybrid? Have you driven one for yourself? Or do you insist on utterly dismissing anything that would cause you any semblance of cognitive dissonance by providing actual evidence that is antithetical to your pre-conceived notions of the world?
@pauljones: Back in the real world, where diesel's cheaper, and still gets better mileage than an hybrid...
We are still at a point in Hybrid tech that the cost of the system outweighs or negates the fuel cost savings. Which means driving a hybrid is not about saving money, but pure smugness, in 'reducing your carbon footprint'.
I said that it has been as much as 60 cents higher, not that it averages 60 cents higher, or is always 60 cents higher. And where I live, there is still a 26 cent premium for diesel.
@pauljones: Like I said... back in the real world...
That's sad. Really. I'd be headhunting some local politicians. Wanna help the real 'Working Man'? Lower the price of the 'Working Man's' fuel. There's a stimulus package for you.
@Forgetful: Especially in The States, where diesel is the foundation of our massive transport infrastructure. Just about every train and truck delivering goods everywhere here relies on the stuff, but I've never even heard a single word from politicians about "helping out" with diesel prices.
My suspicion is that it's much easier to "buy votes" directly from the consumer, rather than tangentially through helping the supply-side (even though the results would probably be greater there). And vote-buying is really the ultimate goal of almost every modern politician.
"Even if we could get one in the US, I wouldn't take one over the Fusion hybrid. If saving gas money is the goal, the Fusion hybrid, despite it getting lower EPA estimates, is the better choice seeing as diesel is vastly more expensive in the US than standard gasoline."
This IS an outrage and California does deserve at least some blame for our dearth of diesels. Makes me wonder how Vin gets aways with it, with all the effluent he puts out.
@Alfisted: I don't know, we have VW Jetta TDIs here... my sister in law just bought the sportwagon. Isn't that the same engine? I think blaming VW (Porsche) group would be a bit more accurate...
@e30 guy -->Now with avatar.: The same exact engine exceeds EPA limits in other vehicles--Tiguan and Pasat come to mind. I assume the Audi would be the same. However, a urea injection system would probably solve it, but VW have shelved that at the moment (to the best of my knowledge).
This is 100% EPA. VAG and M-B have done a helluva lot to make their diesels better over the past 5-7 years, but have been repeatedly shafted by US standards (first the lack of ULSD, and also by the ever-changing emissions regs)
Perfect weather. Not cold, not tired, just ecstatic. Festival atmosphere. Slept under the stars with the sounds of the demonic Lister Storm V8, the magnificent McLaren F1 V12 and the incomparable 911 GT1 flat-6 just a few hundred feet away. Fresh pain au chocolat and French coffee for breakfast. Utter joy.
04/24/09
And the US divisions want to uphold this image of luxury which pretty much requires at least a V6 for them to have any credibility in this market. The 3-series BMW is available in Europe with a 2-liter 4-cylinder engine and the A4 is available with a 1.8, 160hp engine. It would be unheard of for them to offer such engines here, unless, perhaps gasoline jumped to $6+ a gallon.
04/24/09
Big caveat here: 9/10 of all Audi A3 and A4 models are now sold with the turbo 4 (yesterday on Jalop). Surprised me, but also tells me that people aren't always hp- and cylinders-obsessed.
04/24/09
04/24/09
04/24/09
04/24/09
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04/24/09
As for the wear, again, its going to take some time for the oil pressure to get back up after shutoff...
04/24/09
It all sort of flies in the face of my ingrained desire NOT to cycle a car too many times each day (for longevity).
04/24/09
Cockbiscuits.
04/24/09
04/24/09
I could never rationally afford the Audi (new), and I drive too little to justify a diesel, but I love them anyway. I mostly just want to see this country get on a path to energy diversification. And if a luxury marque can do that with diesel, it could make a powerful statement.
04/24/09
04/24/09
04/24/09
Audi A4 TDI: I'm not a witch I'm not a witch!
CARB: But you are dressed as one
Audi A4 TDI: *They* dressed me up like this!
Delusional, Prius-loving Greenies: We didn't! We didn't...
Audi A4 TDI: And this isn't my emissions. It's a false one.
CARB: [lifts up her false nose] Well?
Delusional, Prius-loving Greeny 1: Well, we did do the emissions.
CARB: The emissions?
Delusional, Prius-loving Greeny 1: And the NOX, but she is a witch!
Delusional, Prius-loving Greenies: Yeah! Burn her! Burn her!
CARB: Did you dress her up like this?
Delusional, Prius-loving Greeny 1: No!
Delusional, Prius-loving Greeny 3, Delusional, Prius-loving Greeny 2: No!
Delusional, Prius-loving Greeny 3: No!
Delusional, Prius-loving Greeny 1: No!
Delusional, Prius-loving Greeny 3, Delusional, Prius-loving Greeny 2: No!
Delusional, Prius-loving Greeny 1: Yes!
Delusional, Prius-loving Greeny 2: Yes!
Delusional, Prius-loving Greeny 1: Yeah a bit.
Delusional, Prius-loving Greeny 3: A bit!
Delusional, Prius-loving Greeny 1, Delusional, Prius-loving Greeny 2: A bit!
Delusional, Prius-loving Greeny 2: a bit
Delusional, Prius-loving Greeny 1: But she has got a diesel!
Random Person in the Delusional, Prius-loving Greenies: *cough* *cough*
CARB: What makes you think she's a witch?
Delusional, Prius-loving Greeny 3: Well, she turned me into a newt!
CARB: A newt?
Delusional, Prius-loving Greeny 3: [meekly after a long pause] ... I got better.
Crowd: [shouts] Burn her anyway!
04/24/09
04/24/09
04/24/09
04/24/09
04/24/09
Jeopardy Category: Snakes and British Comedy
Daily Double Answer: Graham Chapman, Eric Idle, Terry Gilliam, Terry Jones, John Cleese, Michael Palin.
Engineerd, I thought it was a pretty good tie in... Holy Grail and all.
04/24/09
A video says a million words.
04/24/09
For those who already bought their tdis, congrats on your investment!
04/24/09
04/24/09
But you'd have to swap out the low rolling resistance tires for something with some cornering sticktion.
Any idea on the torque figures? Acceleration isn't so vast.
And don't forget that diesel has more fuel value than gasoline, so the mpgs aren't directly comparable.
04/24/09
The reality is that diesel engines have a number of other factors working in their favour (besides just slightly higher energy content per unit volume in the fuel), so the efficiency is quite a bit better. Maybe 5 MPG at most is attributable to the higher energy content of the fuel, so the TDI really is a much more efficient car than the non-TDI version.
Furthermore, diesel fuel requires less refinement and can be generated from non-petroleum-based feedstocks, making it a more efficient fuel overall.
04/24/09
All said, that Audi could be a sweet deal, and a nice ride.
04/24/09
This is getting out of hand.
04/24/09
04/24/09
04/24/09
1. Sign order establishing Euro emission standards for diesel passenger cars.
2. Negotiate with European, Japanese and Korean transportation/environment ministries to create common emission and safety standards for automobiles.
3. Start producing cars that can be sold worldwide without needing new front bumpers, different exhausts, etc.
Then you can get your A4 Avant TDI shipped to the US by just special ordering it. None of this redesign garbage. You want a Kei car? Order one, have it show up on your doorstep in a shipping crate :)
04/24/09
04/24/09
04/24/09
04/24/09
I spent last week traipsing about the English countryside. Spotting a series of Audi & BMW diesel wagons in the hotel parking lot sparked a drunken rant about the unavailability of such vehicles stateside and the piss-poor state of things when we can't get such a no-brainer as this. I'm fairly certain I used the words "fuck" and "cockknockers" a lot.
Who'da thunk that you could get Maker's Mark in North Yorkshire?
04/24/09
Though during the summer, I tend to switch to Beefeater and Tonic.
04/24/09
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04/24/09
Diesel is 5 cents more per gallon by my house in Houston. Doing great with my Jetta TDI Sportwagon.
04/24/09
I think we have to hope for an algae diesel breakthrough to lower it to less than $1/Gallon.
04/24/09
If your goal is to "be green", you're better off with a diesel than a hybrid. When you look at the overall vehicle impact on the planet, the hybrid is fairly nasty.
04/24/09
I really am too lazy to do an exact calculation, but an educated estimate tells me that for a California driver, the Ford Fusion Hybrid would make more sense the Audi.
04/24/09
Considering the Fusion costs less from the outset, I'd say the Audi has little to no chance in any market where lower cost is the objective.
04/24/09
@wbrproductions:
Have you not read any of the reviews about the Ford Fusion Hybrid? Have you driven one for yourself? Or do you insist on utterly dismissing anything that would cause you any semblance of cognitive dissonance by providing actual evidence that is antithetical to your pre-conceived notions of the world?
04/24/09
We are still at a point in Hybrid tech that the cost of the system outweighs or negates the fuel cost savings. Which means driving a hybrid is not about saving money, but pure smugness, in 'reducing your carbon footprint'.
04/24/09
@KinofCain:
I said that it has been as much as 60 cents higher, not that it averages 60 cents higher, or is always 60 cents higher. And where I live, there is still a 26 cent premium for diesel.
04/24/09
That's sad. Really. I'd be headhunting some local politicians. Wanna help the real 'Working Man'? Lower the price of the 'Working Man's' fuel. There's a stimulus package for you.
04/24/09
My suspicion is that it's much easier to "buy votes" directly from the consumer, rather than tangentially through helping the supply-side (even though the results would probably be greater there). And vote-buying is really the ultimate goal of almost every modern politician.
04/24/09
But then you would be driving a Ford...
04/24/09
04/24/09
04/24/09
04/24/09
04/24/09
This is 100% EPA. VAG and M-B have done a helluva lot to make their diesels better over the past 5-7 years, but have been repeatedly shafted by US standards (first the lack of ULSD, and also by the ever-changing emissions regs)
03/05/09
Perfect weather. Not cold, not tired, just ecstatic. Festival atmosphere. Slept under the stars with the sounds of the demonic Lister Storm V8, the magnificent McLaren F1 V12 and the incomparable 911 GT1 flat-6 just a few hundred feet away. Fresh pain au chocolat and French coffee for breakfast. Utter joy.
Best racing memory ever.