@layabout: I made this coment before but was hamstered (also there was a comment from Ash that´s gone right now), I even added a Porsche version to compete with the Nissan Nuvu
@Mad_Science: Yeah i agree Audi offer a very good customer service,but they also offer one of the most expensive labour rates going. I knew plenty of Audi customers that swore they'd never buy another again due to average reliability & huge repair costs. Yet Skoda,the cheapest brand in the chain don't suffer those problems.
@Mad_Science: Audi, lately, is also getting a lot of attention for what they call their "fractions of a millimeter". It was something I couldn't put my finger on until I had it pointed out to me. When you sit in an Audi, even as opposed to a VW, the difference is in the tiniest things. Ever have a seam on your steering wheel that didn't quite line up, and you feel it every time you put your hand there? That's the sort of thing that Audi is specifically focusing on preventing. Any spot that the driver will have to frequently and consistently interact with is being dealt with down to "fractions of a millimeter". It's a really simple concept, but also really brilliant when you think of it.
@Deartháir: It's also just marketing guff,they still use the same parts as the rest of the cars under the VW/Audi banner. Like i said having worked for them opened my eyes to all the stuff they expext their customers to believe.
@layabout: The point being there's more to the difference between an Audi and VW than the badge and "prestige".
You're paying for the burden of increased labor rates (trained techs are expensive), and design/engineering solutions that favor excellence over cost, serviceability or durability.
I suppose in a lot of ways, this is what Cadillac did wrong over the years. They offered badgineered GM products, but didn't spend the extra time to make it excellent.
I do agree that there is something more to Audi than VW. I've been with my B5 Passat for about 8 years, and in the meantime have had some seat time the B5 and B6 Audis, as well as the TT and others. There is definitely a higher build quality to the Audi.
One specific thing I like to point out is the door striker plate. VW uses the traditional U-shaped steel, while Audi (and Merc, BMW, and others) use a thick, box-shaped, rubber-dampened striker. I'm sure the part costs several dollars more, but I suspect that's just one more step toward reducing vibration and rattles in the cabin.
Now, chassis being the same, that's just lipstick on a pig...but when a lot of your brand is based on "perceived solidness," you pull no punches in supporting the perception. FWIW, the A4 also has other things, like a lower subframe brace that the Passat does not (I have one, aftermarket).
@Mad_Science: Then explain why the Skoda Octavia out performs its Audi & VW counterparts in everyway. The reality is that an Audi is a badge snobs Skoda,the same parts cost less in Seat & Skoda garages than VW & Audi dealerships,i worked in the network for long enough to have first hand experience on them all.
@layabout: I can't really get into it about Skoda, because we don't have them here. Likewise, all of my commentary is from a US perspective.
The reason the parts cost more is because there's more overhead at a luxury dealer. The couches are nicer, they pay their employees more, they give you loaners.
All this shit costs money, and that's part of what you're paying for with an Audi.
If you're just evaluating the car, and intend to do all your own work with parts from the parts counter...then the value really deteriorates. I guess that's also why used (particularly high-mileage) luxury cars depreciate so much. With 120k on the clock, it's not like you're getting a gift basket from the dealer every Christmas.
@Mad_Science: I wish it was true that Audi paid more than other makes in the network,sadly it was all the same pay with maybe some regional differences. Again they all give out loan cars or offer lifts to customers while cars are being serviced,that's my point,over here Skoda if any of them have less issues & are top in allround customer satisfaction. So i'd be pretty angry if i bought a new Audi with the same spec as my neighbours Skoda & saw him getting better or even equal treatment having spent a lot more money than him. I saw this with my own eyes when i was employed by Audi,yes i'd buy a used Audi but i'd never buy a new one or take it to them for repairs.
Also, for those complaining about platform prostitution too much, you need to do more research into the up!
The very essence of the up! is that it doesn't REALLY have a platform; it has three. The car is designed kind of like lego. The rear platform has the entire engine-transaxle assembly. The front platform has the steering, electronics, cooling and climate control systems. The middle section houses the passengers. It's been designed that sections can be easily mixed and matched to create dozens of different styles of cars. It is pretty much perfect to use to create a luxury subcompact.
I'm wondering how long before Lamborghini takes a stab at it.
VW/Audi is the only company I can think of who truly seems to get the concept of proper badge-engineering. Their entire lineup, across multiple brands, uses some form of platform sharing; in most cases, far more than GM or Ford do, but VW just does it a whole lot better. There is no mistaking that an Enclave is an Acadia is an Outlook is a Traverse; it's not so obvious that an A4 and a Passat are the same car, or that a Phaeton and a Bentley Continental GT are the same car. The R8 shares a lot with the Gallardo, but they hardly look that related. The A3 is the worst offender, but even that looks significantly different from its Golf/Rabbit platform-mate.
Long story short, I am actually excited about the VW up!, and if there actually is an Audi version (and I'd guess it probably will make it to Canada, but maybe not the 'States) I would expect it not to look like quite so blatant platform prostitution as that; I will probably buy one to commute with. Should look great beside the G8.
I remember when i started working for Audi,the manager conducting the interview always asked potential employees what they think about Audi products. One of the questions asked was "Do you think there is an Audi for everyone?" I replied something along the lines of "I believe there is a model in the range that suits most peoples requirements". The manager replied,well we at Audi believe there are certain class' of people that we don't like to see in our cars,hence we price our cars accordingly. Now it appears they are happy to take anyones money. The whole time i worked for them i found them very pretentious,if it wasn't for having a laugh with the technichians & getting to drive some of the better Audi's i would have left long before i did.
I'm still waiting to see the Up! Stop showing the concept, roll out the actual car, sell it to us poor bastards shelling out our simoleons on fuel. I'd spend exactly the same, car note+fuel vs. no note and lousy mileage.
Is this still rear-engined? I'd read somewhere that VW was having some issues with crosswind stability (just like old beetle) and were actually redesigning the Up! with FWD. I'm not sure how AUDI is regarded in other markets but, it would seem a bit out of place in their lineup.
@crankcase: Nope, there was a lengthy article in either CAR or evo recently about this. It is remaining RWD, because the entire concept of the car is based around a modular design.
This car is actually cooler and cooler the more you look into it.
Chrysler, GM and Ford decided to stop building small cars with efficient little engines and manual transmissions, and then badge engineering them for a host of sister marques (Buick, Chevy, Olds or Mercury and Ford proper, or Chrysler and Dodge) like they did in the '50's, 60's and '70's.
This niche, thus abandoned, is being explored by Porsche-VAG. And I for one welcome SOMEONE building cars I actually might want to buy.
@DoctorNine: I don't know if I agree that they abandoned the small car market... microcars were never a gift of the large trio.
Aveo, Fiesta, etc... those are as small as it gets.
Hell the Geos of the world etc... they dabbled, gotta give them that. I also must mention the Cruze which is on its way as a better entry into the "not quite micro but don't call it small sedan" category...
But the audi one spanks the bejesus out of the VW for sure!
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Also, in the States, VW dealers have notoriously bad service, while Audi dealers have notoriously good service.
All that said, I'd have a hard time getting excited about an A3 over a GTI.
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You're paying for the burden of increased labor rates (trained techs are expensive), and design/engineering solutions that favor excellence over cost, serviceability or durability.
I suppose in a lot of ways, this is what Cadillac did wrong over the years. They offered badgineered GM products, but didn't spend the extra time to make it excellent.
10/31/08
10/31/08
I do agree that there is something more to Audi than VW. I've been with my B5 Passat for about 8 years, and in the meantime have had some seat time the B5 and B6 Audis, as well as the TT and others. There is definitely a higher build quality to the Audi.
One specific thing I like to point out is the door striker plate. VW uses the traditional U-shaped steel, while Audi (and Merc, BMW, and others) use a thick, box-shaped, rubber-dampened striker. I'm sure the part costs several dollars more, but I suspect that's just one more step toward reducing vibration and rattles in the cabin.
Now, chassis being the same, that's just lipstick on a pig...but when a lot of your brand is based on "perceived solidness," you pull no punches in supporting the perception. FWIW, the A4 also has other things, like a lower subframe brace that the Passat does not (I have one, aftermarket).
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Personally, I'd love to have Skodas to choose from.
10/31/08
The reason the parts cost more is because there's more overhead at a luxury dealer. The couches are nicer, they pay their employees more, they give you loaners.
All this shit costs money, and that's part of what you're paying for with an Audi.
If you're just evaluating the car, and intend to do all your own work with parts from the parts counter...then the value really deteriorates. I guess that's also why used (particularly high-mileage) luxury cars depreciate so much. With 120k on the clock, it's not like you're getting a gift basket from the dealer every Christmas.
10/31/08
10/31/08
The very essence of the up! is that it doesn't REALLY have a platform; it has three. The car is designed kind of like lego. The rear platform has the entire engine-transaxle assembly. The front platform has the steering, electronics, cooling and climate control systems. The middle section houses the passengers. It's been designed that sections can be easily mixed and matched to create dozens of different styles of cars. It is pretty much perfect to use to create a luxury subcompact.
I'm wondering how long before Lamborghini takes a stab at it.
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Link please!
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Long story short, I am actually excited about the VW up!, and if there actually is an Audi version (and I'd guess it probably will make it to Canada, but maybe not the 'States) I would expect it not to look like quite so blatant platform prostitution as that; I will probably buy one to commute with. Should look great beside the G8.
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I'm not sure how AUDI is regarded in other markets but, it would seem a bit out of place in their lineup.
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This car is actually cooler and cooler the more you look into it.
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How come there's no clip on the steering wheel for the scorecard?
This golf cart is designed all wrong.
10/31/08
This niche, thus abandoned, is being explored by Porsche-VAG. And I for one welcome SOMEONE building cars I actually might want to buy.
Bravo Audi!
10/31/08
Aveo, Fiesta, etc... those are as small as it gets.
Hell the Geos of the world etc... they dabbled, gotta give them that. I also must mention the Cruze which is on its way as a better entry into the "not quite micro but don't call it small sedan" category...
But the audi one spanks the bejesus out of the VW for sure!
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