Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was starred
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was unstarred
Um.. I'm not saying everything the cop did was justified, but I think the stop was... The one thing the dash cam shows that we didn't see on the cell phone was that the ambulance was not "code 3" (lights and sirens). I think if they are not code 3, slow down and pull right applies.
@jolietjake: If you watched the whole dashcam video, the ambulance did pull over just as soon as he could safely do so. Apparently it wasn't fast enough for the trooper who was going code 3 to assist a County Deputy with a stolen vehicle report (code 3 to do paperwork?!).
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was starred
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was unstarred
When the cop says "You failed to yield to an emergency vehicle"
Uhm dumb shit, the Ambulance is an emergency vehicle. Not to mention when you run up on a vehicle at 100 mph, and they have a car next to them, they cannot pull to the side..
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was starred
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was unstarred
An ambulance driver certainly has the right to be focused on the road when he is going to the hospital, the rate of speed the cop came up on him coupled with the fact that he was giving safe space to a car on the side of the road and paying attention to what it was doing was certainly enough reason not to immediately yield.
Cop is a total asshole. Didn't bother to turn his sirens on when chasing the guy down either which is one big gripe I have with cops:
Either you are in pursuit, with sirens on and going faster than the posted speed, or you are driving with sirens off at the posted speed. I've seen plenty of cops weaving through traffic, no signal, no siren, no lights 20 mph faster than the traffic. It's dangerous, pricks.
I've always thought that the AC/DC song Highway to Hell would make a perfect recruiting theme for the CHP. All it needs is some minor changes to the lyrics and. . .
Living easy, living free
Speeding tickets are what I write
Pull 'em over, just like on TV
For just a broken tail light
Don't need reason, don't need rhyme
Ain't nothing I would rather do
Going down, eye-five
My friends are all coppers too
I'm on the Highway Patrol
Highway Patrol
Highway Patrol
No stop signs, speed limit
Nobody's gonna slow me down
Black and White, sit my ass in it
Nobody's gonna mess me round
Hey buddy, get out of the car
You been drinkin'? You been at a bar?
Hey momma, look at me
We can fix that ticket if you just smoke my cigar.
If you watch the dash video, you'll see that the ambulance had to avoid a car that had pulled over for it before it could pull over for the cop. It pulled over as quickly as it safely could. The cop was responding to assist County on a stolen vehicle report, there was no real reason for him to be highballing it with lights and sirens in the first place. As soon as the trooper (intentionally not capitalized) was released from that scene, he immediately hauled ass in pursuit of the ambulance (without lights and sirens) which immediately pulled over. I sincerely hope that this trooper loses his job.
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was starred
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was unstarred
When Martin eventually pulled the ambulance over, Maurice White hopped out of the back and attempted to reason with Martin
This doesn't in any way excuse the officer's behavior...but I can understand why having someone jump out of their vehicle after being pulled over would put an officer on edge
What is particularly upsetting is that this guy Martin (606)-- whether or not he saw a rude hand gesture, is using tactics that are NOT approved by any LEO agency I know of-- namely that particular style of choke out-- on freaking camera, and not caring about it. I dunno about other LEO-types who lurk here, but there was a lesson to be learned from the Rodney King incident, and I guess bass-ackwards Oklahoma just hasn't been paying attention to the LEO community for the past 17 years or so...
Furthermore, being an asshole to an EMT, whether or not it was Creek Nation is bad Karma. My mom told me back when she worked at the hospital, cops were always nice to her. She also got pulled over once in her scrubs by the CHP, and they let her off with a warning. The CHP (and CA agencies in general) have the sense to know that being nice to the people that will be saving your life pays dividends... You never know if the guy you just gave a ticket is going to be the guy pulling the bullet out of you next week.
@Plecostomus needs GALVANIZED SCREWS: It basically makes people distrust cops. I've had to deal with rude cops, who weren't afraid to use a little bit of force. Even now, I still don't feel too comfortable around cops. I know that most cops are good guys, but it only takes one bad experience...
@lilwillie heart clicks GM: The sad part is that you're right. When I was in the police academy, I couldn't believe the trouble some of the other candidates were having (all of which were sponsored -- ie, already hired and being paid to be there). Some of them had trouble with basic english like "there" versus "their" and never seemed to do well on the Learning Domain (LD exams). I'm not going to rat on WHICH agencies they were from, but they were ALL Orange County Agencies.
I will say this, though-- Laguna Beach PD hires smart cops. Very, very bright recruits and bright officers.
@lilwillie heart clicks GM:Reading the officers forum that you listed made me kind of angry. When you read these officers discussions you know it's just about the money. How does a louder than stock exhaust impair anyone's safety?
@TheGuinnessTooth: Mufflers don't really affect emissions, loud exhaust is a noise violation. If the catalytic converters are missing, the cop that pulls you over probably isn't going to notice. Even if he does, it's not really his problem to deal with.
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was starred
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was unstarred
@Flathead Smith: i think that its an excuse to pull a guy over whom they think may be a bad guy.
see racial profiling for more info...
if a guy looks like a no good bum then odds are he is a no good bum... better to pull him over for a loud muffler before then arrest him for killing someone while drunk or street racing...
@paulmer: So it hit these other sites a full week before it even happened!? Now that's some fast reporting! As I pointed out earlier, the dashcam video was released today. Any reporting before today was without the benefit of all the facts.
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was starred
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was unstarred
There are two kinds of people in the U.S: the kind who obey an officer's instructions and the ones who don't--who yell, argue, disagree, and generally create disorder. Cops will not tolerate that. You are a danger to the cop and to everyone else if you don't settle down. The minute the EMT calmed down he was released.
"Assault" is a legal term and nothing legally has been decided about this, Wes. In fact, laying on hands is "battery" in most places.
The ambulance was not running lights and allegedly failed to yield. It was not an emergency. The woman was treated and released. Her husband was behaving in an obnoxious manner.
Right or wrong, don't DEFY cops.
How about showing this video, to balance things a bit?
It's even more car related only the cop gets murdered by two aholes at the end.
Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you on that, and I'm pretty sure no AMERICAN, EUROPEAN, ASIAN, AFRICAN whatever, would. No human being can be expected to take abuse from some backwoods moron with a badge and a gun, being paid by their/our own tax dollars to boot.
I don't care how many of them get shot THAT'S the profession THEY CHOSE. It doesn't give them the right to ASSAULT their fellow citizens and THAT my friend WAS and unprovoked ASSAULT. No crime was being committed, he had no lawful reason to lay his hands on that EMT.
@Novaload Misses Murilee: You are full of shit, the fact we have not right to DEFY cops makes them abuse their power even more. A cop does not have the right to beat the shit out of me if I raise my voice because they are frustrating. They have far too much power and they abuse it far too often. Sitting down and taking it does not make the situation better.
@Novaload Misses Murilee: I'm pretty sure the EMT that got choked considers it assault. You'd hope that EMT's would be granted a little more professional respect from their colleagues in the police force than what was shown here.
@Rican5.0: No, it was an unprovoked battery, not assault.
Assault is a "swing and a miss" or other attempt and battery is a "swing and a hit" or other contact.
There are three kinds of cops-- do-gooders (the kind we need more of, and I've met a few), the letter-of-the-law stickler (the jerk who noone liked in the academy) and then there's the corrupt cop / ego power-trip cop. Fortunately I've only read stories about type number three, and never encountered one either in the academy or as a citizen.
Nova,
I've seen PLENTY of officer death videos (including listening to the final death rattles of an officer post-head shot) as his dashcam records the rest of the scenario, been through quite a bit of officer safety training and watching the vid, I gotta disagree, there was no reason for that officer to get in the EMT's face and make contact, and he's a freaking EMT... EMT's don't carry weapons, that level of force was unwarranted.
Come to NYC, Brooklyn specifically. There has been a breakdown in this society where cops are trained to be on the offensive and to serve the power that be as well as their own immediate interests. If you don't defend yourself against the police here using video cameras, community council meeting, news outlets, etc... you will end up screwed, locked up or dead. I don't care if you are white, black, pr, etc. People who think that the police force serves the interest of the people are deluding themselves. I am a white male with no criminal history. I am very polite and respectful and I am treated like garbage as well as many other people that I know. Minorities have it worse, obviously. I would like a year to go by without on duty uniformed cops raping a woman or shaking down my friends or turning tricks with hookers in my neighborhood. They sell drugs, take bribes and treat people like shit. I see it all the time. I could move but I love where I live and it is getting better every day, no thanks to NYPD.
@Novaload Misses Murilee: The fact that you'd defend this is sickening. The cops in the video above are the reason the cop in your video got killed. If cops acted responsibly the people they were arresting would do the same. Cops bring that shit upon themselves by acting like the wannabe SS thugs in the video above.
In case no one clued you into this, there are cops who rape little teens that they pull over for insignificant 'violations' and there are cops who murder people, thinking they can easily evade justice. Just work with law enforcement for a while, and you will see crazy stupid stuff.
Civilians are NOT required to obey an illegal order, just like soldiers in war, etc. And in no case is a police officer entitled to use excessive force, especially if that leads to bodily injury of those in his charge. I don't know how many homicide investigations I worked with an officer as suspect...
@Wes Siler: But the legal process has yet to determine whether he was being held/restrained vs. "assaulted" -- but you went with the inflammatory version.
@Novaload Misses Murilee: I dunno. I watched both videos, the officer's use of force seems pretty unnecessary, especially in light of his decidedly offensive outburst right after the ambulance pulled over. When the EMT supervisor got out of the back and asked to be allowed to drop off the patient at the hospital before dealing with the issue, he gave the officer an opportunity to de-escalate the situation. the officer none-too-politely declined.
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was starred
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was unstarred
@Novaload Misses Murilee: And the ambulance pulled over just as soon as it was safe to do so. The officer probably shouldn't have been running lights and sirens on a narrow two-lane for a non-emergency call, and certainly shouldn't have pursued the ambulance without lights and sirens in a residential area after he was released from his non-emergency call. There's a reason that the video wasn't released by OHP until a full three weeks after the incident, as a simple viewing of it shows. As for the alleged "gesture" made by the ambulance driver, it could have been the bird, or it could have been a misinterpreted apologetic wave. Since it wasn't caught on video we'll never know, but it still doesn't excuse the trooper's behavior.
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was starred
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was unstarred
@Novaload Misses Murilee: Guys, I am NOT defending cops generically. Believe me, I know there are some psycho ones. I've met them. And there is nothing worse than a renegade in the thin blue line.
But even with psycho ones--or maybe even especially WITH psycho ones--the sure way to end up more majorly effed up or in jail is to argue, evade, resist. Walk away, climb back in your vehicle, do the opposite of what you're told and you can expect some action. Period. You can settle up later; call your lawyer, sue--but escalating is just stupid. You won't win.
In this case, one EMT talked quietly to the cop and the cop walked away; the other one not only refused to cooperate but when the cop put his hand on him, he shoved the cop off. This makes you an idiot; and it's a credit to the cop--who didn't "choke" him put put a hold on him to keep him still--that he de-escalated the situation and it ended ok.
How demented or stupid do you have to be to throw down with two troopers?
@Wes Siler: The cop place a hand on him to arrest him. The guy shoves the cops hand/arm away. The guy who puts his hand at the guys throat is not choking him; he's forcing him to stand still. And it worked.
The courts decide if it's "assault" or "battery" or by whom. If you shove a cop, for any reason, good luck in court.
So you are claiming it's "assault" but that remains to be seen. But it's still a very provocative --deliberately--caption.
@Plecostomus needs GALVANIZED SCREWS: The EMT was unprofessional. If you cared about the patient that much, you'd take the ticket and hit the road. The guy SHOVED THE COP. That's resisting arrest. You lose the high ground when you do that.
@economycar: If you think I'm arguing that all cops are saints, you missed the point.
A bad cop is the most evil of evil. If you want to die or get effed up, challenge a bad cop. If you want to go to jail and maybe get tased, challenge a good one.
@TheGuinnessTooth: Great. The next time you get pulled over and the cop says he's going to arrest you, and places a hand on you, shove him away and see what happens.
@Mike the Dog: You guys are going to take a beating out there if you get pulled over.
Cops control situations; their who training is about authority and controlling situations. Ever watch "Cops"? Ever hear and see the out of control screaming and yelling and sometimes provocative behavior?
It's just like 911. People get pissed at 911 operators (not the morons--let me explain this, so nobody flips out--who are arrogant or hang up or are a-holes) -- but they are trained to be non-emotional and fact oriented. They come across as a-holes sometimes--you've just seen a tragic accident and all the person on the other end says is "I need you to calm down. I need you to calm down." The cops job is to have people quiet, not flailing their arms around, digging in pockets whatever. If he says you're under arrest and you shove him, you're confusing being acquitted later with resisting arrest, obstructing an officer etc etc.
But please, those of you who think you don't have to do what cops say, go right ahead and test that empirically. Let me know how that works out for ya.
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was starred
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was unstarred
If a cop's harassing you like that, you do what he tells you, as long as you're not putting yourself in danger. You stay calm. And, if need be, you file a lawsuit after the incident has passed.
@Novaload Misses Murilee: You are giving bad advice. DO NOT obey illegal directives, even by traffic officers stopping you. Ask him to call his lieutenant if he is acting this way. Go further if you have to. The important thing, is to get the offense documented by someone other than the offending cop. Once the LEO knows his boss is coming to look the scene over, he is probably going to de-escalate himself, because he doesn't want to look like a dick in front of the guy who writes his evals. If you go to court with only the offending cop's report, then you will likely lose.
So in sum, DO NOT take this shit. Ask for supervisory personnel. File a complaint.
Telling people to roll over is bad advice, old buddy.
you think if the emt wasn't black this would've happened? this is clearly spurned of, if not due to, racism. the fact that this officer martin clearly didn't have too much smarts also didn't help. tsk tsk tsk
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Uhm dumb shit, the Ambulance is an emergency vehicle. Not to mention when you run up on a vehicle at 100 mph, and they have a car next to them, they cannot pull to the side..
This man is not a cop, he is a disgrace.
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Cop is a total asshole. Didn't bother to turn his sirens on when chasing the guy down either which is one big gripe I have with cops:
Either you are in pursuit, with sirens on and going faster than the posted speed, or you are driving with sirens off at the posted speed. I've seen plenty of cops weaving through traffic, no signal, no siren, no lights 20 mph faster than the traffic. It's dangerous, pricks.
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And an E-M-T can still be beat
When he fails to give the right of waaaayyyy!
Yeeow! Aye-yip-aye-yo-ee-ay!
We're only sayin'
You're gettin' fined, Oklahoma!
Oklahoma O.K.!
06/15/09
Thanks a lot.
06/15/09
I've always thought that the AC/DC song Highway to Hell would make a perfect recruiting theme for the CHP. All it needs is some minor changes to the lyrics and. . .
Living easy, living free
Speeding tickets are what I write
Pull 'em over, just like on TV
For just a broken tail light
Don't need reason, don't need rhyme
Ain't nothing I would rather do
Going down, eye-five
My friends are all coppers too
I'm on the Highway Patrol
Highway Patrol
Highway Patrol
No stop signs, speed limit
Nobody's gonna slow me down
Black and White, sit my ass in it
Nobody's gonna mess me round
Hey buddy, get out of the car
You been drinkin'? You been at a bar?
Hey momma, look at me
We can fix that ticket if you just smoke my cigar.
I'm on the Highway Patrol
Highway Patrol
Highway Patrol
(dont stop me)
Highway Patrol
And Im going down, all the way!
I'm on the Highway Patrol
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This doesn't in any way excuse the officer's behavior...but I can understand why having someone jump out of their vehicle after being pulled over would put an officer on edge
06/15/09
Furthermore, being an asshole to an EMT, whether or not it was Creek Nation is bad Karma. My mom told me back when she worked at the hospital, cops were always nice to her. She also got pulled over once in her scrubs by the CHP, and they let her off with a warning. The CHP (and CA agencies in general) have the sense to know that being nice to the people that will be saving your life pays dividends... You never know if the guy you just gave a ticket is going to be the guy pulling the bullet out of you next week.
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I mean, the EMT is the one on the scene saving your ass when you've been shot. The surgeon doesn't come till later.
06/15/09
[forums.officer.com]
Geeze, they sound like teenage boys who just figured out what that fur in between her legs is for.
For every Cop that finished first in his class, someone had to finish last.
06/15/09
I will say this, though-- Laguna Beach PD hires smart cops. Very, very bright recruits and bright officers.
I can't say so much for certain other agencies.
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see racial profiling for more info...
if a guy looks like a no good bum then odds are he is a no good bum... better to pull him over for a loud muffler before then arrest him for killing someone while drunk or street racing...
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"Assault" is a legal term and nothing legally has been decided about this, Wes. In fact, laying on hands is "battery" in most places.
The ambulance was not running lights and allegedly failed to yield. It was not an emergency. The woman was treated and released. Her husband was behaving in an obnoxious manner.
Right or wrong, don't DEFY cops.
How about showing this video, to balance things a bit?
It's even more car related only the cop gets murdered by two aholes at the end.
[www.liveleak.com]
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06/15/09
"Right or wrong, don't DEFY cops.."
Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you on that, and I'm pretty sure no AMERICAN, EUROPEAN, ASIAN, AFRICAN whatever, would. No human being can be expected to take abuse from some backwoods moron with a badge and a gun, being paid by their/our own tax dollars to boot.
I don't care how many of them get shot THAT'S the profession THEY CHOSE. It doesn't give them the right to ASSAULT their fellow citizens and THAT my friend WAS and unprovoked ASSAULT. No crime was being committed, he had no lawful reason to lay his hands on that EMT.
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Especially with a patient present. If you try to defend that cop you're probably just as warped as him.
06/15/09
Assault is a "swing and a miss" or other attempt and battery is a "swing and a hit" or other contact.
There are three kinds of cops-- do-gooders (the kind we need more of, and I've met a few), the letter-of-the-law stickler (the jerk who noone liked in the academy) and then there's the corrupt cop / ego power-trip cop. Fortunately I've only read stories about type number three, and never encountered one either in the academy or as a citizen.
Nova,
I've seen PLENTY of officer death videos (including listening to the final death rattles of an officer post-head shot) as his dashcam records the rest of the scenario, been through quite a bit of officer safety training and watching the vid, I gotta disagree, there was no reason for that officer to get in the EMT's face and make contact, and he's a freaking EMT... EMT's don't carry weapons, that level of force was unwarranted.
06/15/09
Come to NYC, Brooklyn specifically. There has been a breakdown in this society where cops are trained to be on the offensive and to serve the power that be as well as their own immediate interests. If you don't defend yourself against the police here using video cameras, community council meeting, news outlets, etc... you will end up screwed, locked up or dead. I don't care if you are white, black, pr, etc. People who think that the police force serves the interest of the people are deluding themselves. I am a white male with no criminal history. I am very polite and respectful and I am treated like garbage as well as many other people that I know. Minorities have it worse, obviously. I would like a year to go by without on duty uniformed cops raping a woman or shaking down my friends or turning tricks with hookers in my neighborhood. They sell drugs, take bribes and treat people like shit. I see it all the time. I could move but I love where I live and it is getting better every day, no thanks to NYPD.
06/15/09
06/15/09
06/15/09
Cops are not The Hand of God.
In case no one clued you into this, there are cops who rape little teens that they pull over for insignificant 'violations' and there are cops who murder people, thinking they can easily evade justice. Just work with law enforcement for a while, and you will see crazy stupid stuff.
Civilians are NOT required to obey an illegal order, just like soldiers in war, etc. And in no case is a police officer entitled to use excessive force, especially if that leads to bodily injury of those in his charge. I don't know how many homicide investigations I worked with an officer as suspect...
Cops are people too, and some cross the line.
Simple as that.
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But even with psycho ones--or maybe even especially WITH psycho ones--the sure way to end up more majorly effed up or in jail is to argue, evade, resist. Walk away, climb back in your vehicle, do the opposite of what you're told and you can expect some action. Period. You can settle up later; call your lawyer, sue--but escalating is just stupid. You won't win.
In this case, one EMT talked quietly to the cop and the cop walked away; the other one not only refused to cooperate but when the cop put his hand on him, he shoved the cop off. This makes you an idiot; and it's a credit to the cop--who didn't "choke" him put put a hold on him to keep him still--that he de-escalated the situation and it ended ok.
How demented or stupid do you have to be to throw down with two troopers?
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I'm saying that if you do NOT cooperate you can expect worse; the way to deal with it is later, not by trying to defy the cop at the time.
Big difference. See?
06/15/09
The courts decide if it's "assault" or "battery" or by whom. If you shove a cop, for any reason, good luck in court.
So you are claiming it's "assault" but that remains to be seen. But it's still a very provocative --deliberately--caption.
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A bad cop is the most evil of evil. If you want to die or get effed up, challenge a bad cop. If you want to go to jail and maybe get tased, challenge a good one.
06/15/09
THAT's the point. The restraint came AFTER.
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Cops control situations; their who training is about authority and controlling situations. Ever watch "Cops"? Ever hear and see the out of control screaming and yelling and sometimes provocative behavior?
It's just like 911. People get pissed at 911 operators (not the morons--let me explain this, so nobody flips out--who are arrogant or hang up or are a-holes) -- but they are trained to be non-emotional and fact oriented. They come across as a-holes sometimes--you've just seen a tragic accident and all the person on the other end says is "I need you to calm down. I need you to calm down." The cops job is to have people quiet, not flailing their arms around, digging in pockets whatever. If he says you're under arrest and you shove him, you're confusing being acquitted later with resisting arrest, obstructing an officer etc etc.
But please, those of you who think you don't have to do what cops say, go right ahead and test that empirically. Let me know how that works out for ya.
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If a cop's harassing you like that, you do what he tells you, as long as you're not putting yourself in danger. You stay calm. And, if need be, you file a lawsuit after the incident has passed.
Fighting him in-the-moment doesn't do any good.
06/16/09
So in sum, DO NOT take this shit. Ask for supervisory personnel. File a complaint.
Telling people to roll over is bad advice, old buddy.
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