Jalopnik 
Enter your username and password.
Detroit, 5:11 PM
Mon Nov 9
23 posts in the last 24 hours
Tip your editors:
tips@jalopnik.com
Editor-in-Chief:
Ray Wert | Email | AIM
Road Test Editor:
Wes Siler | Email
Weekend Editor:
Murilee Martin | Email
Associate Editor - Houston:
Matt Hardigree
Associate Editor - Detroit:
Ben Wojdyla
Editor-at-Large:
Mike Spinelli
Contributors:
Mark Arnold
John Krewson | Email
Andy Didorosi
Original material is licensed under a Creative Commons License permitting non-commercial sharing with attribution.
09/18/09
09/18/09
09/18/09
09/19/09
They really do need to include power plotted against gearing.
And weight.
And aerodynamic drag.
And grip.
With a throttle opening axis.
And BSFC.
/rambles on
09/18/09
Nice graph, but just a little bit misleading. Just watch what happens when you change the minimum value in the z axis...
09/19/09
@duurtlang: i dunno, from this graph you can clearly see that THE MUSTANG is DOMINATING the girly camaro in the HORSEPOWER WARS!!!
09/19/09
@TENGRAM likes adding a bunch of stuff to the end of his name because it makes him feel like he belongs:
09/18/09
09/18/09
1. Gas tank too small at 16 gallons.
2. No six-speed offered. Oh, they fixed that. Good!
3. No IRS.
09/18/09
The wheel hop was 10 shades of awful.
09/18/09
However, that's an atrocious color scheme in the bar chart.
09/18/09
On the other hand: The 370Z makes 332 HP and weighs 3232 lbs.... Actually, you're at 315 and 3400.... Thats not too shabby. Especially considering what you can add to the Mustang for the $10k price difference...
So, I revise the intent of this post: Congratulations on the new Mustang, Ford. You are producing yet another car that beats its competition, and is reasonably competitive in the next class up.
09/18/09
Every one of you deserves a medal!
09/18/09
The Camero needs work with build quality, ( I believe there is a list posted on here for 60 things to check for before buying a Camero) and Dodge isn't much better.
I looked at the new Challenger, I wasn't impressed at all, the car I saw at the local dealer should not have left quality control..the paint job was horrible, the black grill piece was bubbled.. For the amount of money these cars list for, its just not worth it to me..
This idea of quantity over quality has once again reared it's ugly head..it's like buying a toy from China only to find out you can catch lead poisoning from it. Why can't they build a better car with quality in mind?
09/18/09
09/18/09
I'm sorry but like every other person who thinks they are informed, you're not, you're just perpetuating silly arguments you don't understand. The mustang doesn't need independent rear suspension, the mustang has the best solid rear axle to come on a production car in the history of the planet, by far, both geometrically speaking and developmentally speaking. As some one who works with the McDonald's Indycar team I would be educated about this subject.
The fact is that a poorly constructed independent suspension like the MacPherson struts (one of the worst kinds of IRS) found on BMW 3 series is worse than one of the best solid axle suspensions possible.
This can be proven in multiple ways. First off that the 2010 Mustang only equiped with new spring rates and dampers on the track pack outperforms in handling every single production BMW in history except the latest M3. The only reason the latest M3 is any good is because the M division redesigned the whole suspension. This clearly shows that the typical super-cheap IRS in BMW's (which is still by far better than some of the others) can be worse than a good solid axle, a good IRS which is what is REQUIRED to beat the mustang is only found in maybe 30 out of the 208 models of vehicle on sale in the US.
The fact the mustang handles well can be proven in other ways, for example with the track pack it gets .94g, this is more than a Ferrari F360 on the same model of tire and the same front+rear tire measurement, keep in mind that the track pack rides softer than a sport package BMW, which I've owned for years. Also if you look at the last generation Saleen Mustangs with the extreme package and the tire upgade, they pull 0.99g finally if you put 305 tires front and 335 rear on the 2007 Mustang with the super snake suspension, it will get a skid pad rating of 1.10g average. More than an enzo though admitedly this tire combination when you add front+rear is wider than the Enzo, it still handles better and no you can't put 305 tires on almost any other production vehicle.
So if you combine the Mustang's exceptional abbility to swallow the fatest tires into it's wheel arches and the fact it's crappy suspension is inanely well developed, it's one of the top ten best handling cars you can buy in America, better than an Enzo.
FYI my BMW came from the factory with a broken valve, i'd take a broken grille over that any day.
09/18/09
09/18/09
09/18/09
09/18/09
I have been contemplating buying a new Camaro, and if I did, I would probably get the V6. I made this decision after having driven both of them back-to-back.
Why?
I don't care what anyone says, 304hp and 273lb-ft is nothing to be sneezed at, and considering that I once owned a 327-powered 68 Camaro which was significantly less powerful, I think those numbers qualify as being pretty damn muscular. That V6 is certainly muscular enough to get me to and from work everyday, with plenty of reserves for fun around the Santa Clarita mountains. Combine that with a low entry price and 29mpg, and that is a whole lot of win.
09/18/09
09/18/09
How did someone with a 68 Camaro end up with a Saturn? That's gotta be tough to live with.
You are due for an upgrade, and a new camaro would be a nice one. V6 RS is quite the bang for the buck.
09/18/09
Considering that the original restoration was done with money that I had saved up since I was a wee lad, I was just about broke, and didn't have enough money to fix the car again after the branch fell on it, so off it went. I then got my 74 Cherokee, which I loved dearly right up until I blew the engine, and now I have the Saturn.
My luck with cars pretty much sucks.
09/18/09
If we assume the weight for the Mustang is unchanged at 3401 lbs, here's how it works out:
Mustang: 2.07
Camaro: 1.77
370z: 1.71
Genesis: 1.80
Corvette: 1.37!
09/18/09
I think THIS graph sez it all:
09/18/09
09/18/09
09/18/09
09/18/09
09/18/09
09/18/09
I just hope that it is a three-way battle. Can someone please tell Dodge to get their shit together? They have a great start with the Challenger, but it needs a better base engine/transmission, better suspension, and an interior upgrade. And much, much better marketing. When was the last time we saw a Challenger commercial? While that may sound like a lot, it is insignificant compared to what they already invested to bring the Challenger to the market.
09/18/09
09/18/09
09/18/09
09/18/09
09/18/09
yeah, but I still say it is progress. I remember when v-8 mustangs only made like 200 hp.
09/18/09
And, on a side note, some of the greatest (albeit least-known) American "muscle cars" were sixes.
09/18/09
The 200hp in the 5.0s was a different breed of horsepower though. It was the kind made for pure hoonage. My 86 GT slid around corners with tires screaming and smoke billowing. It was built with the intention of giving heart attacks to the chaste.
The V6s with the same power rating of today are castrated horses. Sure, they have the power, but they don't have the same fire, grit, passion, potency, or balls to the wall madness of the old engines.
09/18/09
But will the 2010 V6 camaro match the straight line performance of a 69 SS with drag radials and slapper bars?
You forget that a lot of the woeful acceleration times of the old cars were because they lack the traction and suspension technology we have today.
It looks like you don't care if you win by an inch or a mile, to me it's all about the drive and the character. Most modern cars are too bland.
09/18/09
The engines in each of those cars are total gems, and have a whole hell of a lot of spit, vinegar, fire, grit, passion, potency and balls.
09/18/09
Do that, and I'd be willing to bet that the 2010 V6 Camaro will still at the very least match the 69 SS396 up the quarter, and then leave it in the dust through the corners.
I had a similar opinion as you about contemporary cars right up until the new pony cars came out and I drove them. They are light-years better then their prior iterations, particularly the Mustang.
09/18/09
Once you start modifying cars, it's difficult to tell where it's fair. Lets say you get $500 to work with. On the Cam, that might get you a cold air kit and a cat-back exhaust. On the SS396, it should get you a cam, headers, and maybe even an intake. If you get it all from a swap meet, you might even be able to get the slicks too.
While I know modern engines respond well to bolt on parts, I also know that they are already built to be close to fulfilling their potential. The old V8s were far from what they could do, but often it didn't take many parts to unleash their potential. I'm betting that this contest would put a roughly 320hp V6 (about 16hp gain from parts) against a V8 with close to 390hp (~60hp increase, depending on parts and tune). As long as the driver can get the launch, I think the 396 has the advantage. I'd be scared to push it around corners though...
Maybe I need to give the new breed of muscle cars a test drive, but I still doubt it'll replace the '04 Mach I have. It may be newer, but it feels like it follows the old philosophy of "Make it fast, then make it drive".
09/18/09
09/18/09
BTW:
Summit cam and lifter kit: $99.95
Summit full length headers: $89.95
Weiand Stealt intake manifold: 189.95
Lakewood traction bars: $116.95
Total: $496.80
(I love reading through Summit's catalog)
09/18/09
~$22K for 300hp+? Yes please.
On a side note, doesn't the Camaro engine make 304 hp?
09/18/09
I've always said, or at least wondered, to my friends that the CEO's of the Big Three golf at the same country club. I can see the T-shot now.
Mulally: "So, Fritz, we are going to go with say, 275 ft.lbs. on the V6 Mustang. FORE!"
Fritz: "Ok, sounds good, I'll let you have that one for a few months then we will release another Camaro version and go to 276 ft. lbs. But please don't do another graph in pink ok? Oh, that is on the green, nice shot Alan."
Marchionne: "Guys.....GUYS!, I still can't find that damn ball Nardelli hit in the rough a few months back!"
09/18/09
09/18/09
09/18/09
Marchionne: "Dammit. It's in the lake. Hell with it, let it sink. I'm going to hit a fresh one and just take the stroke."
09/18/09
09/18/09
I'm glad to see that at least the pony car wars are alive. In this age of ever-increasing green influence in the auto world, with car mags paying more attention to fuel economy and CO2 output, seeing car companies in a serious horsepower war warms the cockles of my heart and my pants.
09/18/09
09/18/09
I love these pony car wars.
09/18/09
09/18/09