People who buy these trucks don't care if they're quiet or not. I mean, the first thing they're going to do is gut the catalytic converter system and put a Banks kit on it, which will basically make it about as loud as a semi truck.
@diskreet: Or "I like it when people get respiratory diseases and die young". Diesel particulate emissions are a significant health hazard which would be greatly reduced if people would just let the 2007 and 2010 compliant systems do their job.
@Flathead Smith: You don't have to be breathing straight from the tailpipe to have increased rates of respiratory trouble... here's an article discussing a study in the San Francisco bay area, for example. [www.sfgate.com]
Not quoting anyone in particular, just saying that tampering with diesel emissions control systems is not necessarily victimless (since the great-grandparent post referred to cutting off the catalysts.)
@Flathead Smith: I'm one of those millions, my whole working life has been either operating diesel machines or designing them. But its not like CARB and EPA are just coming up with these requirements to make the vehicle or machine users' lives miserable. A parallel example is off-highway Tier 4 which has a 40:1 health cost benefit:added machine cost ratio (see bottom of page: [www.epa.gov] )
@ptschett: If CARB and the EPA did not issue new requirements, or reduced the burden of existing regulations, what would be the point of their existence? Their funding would decrease, or not increase at as fast a rate, if they did that. They are incentivized to continually generate more stringent and burdensome regulations. The regulations cost them nothing compared to short term gain they receive, even though it is strangling Californian’s, and too a lesser extent the rest of the countries, ability to compete.
I can guarantee you that if the agencies budget were based on reducing regulations, there would be no regulations at all.
@ptschett:
Hate to poke holes in the study but it's fundamentally flawed with only one of the conclusions drawn in the first few lines. It mentions PORT facility. As in ships. Ships (most) run on No. 6 or No. 5 diesel, as in RFO, which is basically asphalt (without the sand and rock) or tar. This stuff /does/ leave some nasty ash behind as to which anyone who leaves their auto in a car park in Rotterdam can attest. No.2 which is used in autos has a much lower particulate count and a much lower sulphur count in specific. Cutting a long pet-chem lecture short, any auto diesel newer than Euro II spec (pretty much anything used where leaded petrol is NOT sold) is quite clean and is not a particulate problem as days of old. The big particulate problem is ships and trains, and yes, there are laws on the books going into play to address those issues.
@DieselDutchman: Their study did find that 70% of the risk was from the truck traffic. Thanks for the background on the ships though, I knew they were dirty but didn't know they were that nasty.
@ptschett: After time to read the entire paper, the model they use is still flawed. The model doesn't state that it takes into account BIN 5 fuel standards (somewhere between Euro IV and Euro V but with less cetane) or rely on modeled data based on new few standards or better fuel quality standards. It is like saying fuel quality or burn quality is never going to be better than it was in 2005. I also must question the model without the source methods of calculations being readily published (I couldn't find the programme or calculation). For example, one only need to go to LANL to get the full methodology for atomic modeling. I also don't see atmospheric chemistry being factored in with any major capacity.
Also the study paper uses a lot of terms like "may" and "suspect". In my branch of the sciences, a study holds much more water when terms such as "most probable [cause]" or "confirmed [through evidence cited]" or the like. For the sake of comparison of studies, compare this study in read with an US NTSB or UK AAIB air crash investigation.
The bottom line is that diesel 'soot' is much better than coal 'soot' and that our forefathers would have died exclusively of lung cancer in their 20's from coal fired 'everything' in the industrial revolution if soot were as dangerous as it was made out to be. Either that, or somehow diesel 'soot' is inherently more dangerous in North America.
Thanks for an interesting read!
@DieselDutchman: I said earlier "First of all any environmental study or article that comes from California is severely suspect in regard to outright blatant bias."
It’s much easier when one looks to the source and its history of deceit and dismiss it as a bucketful of lies, than actually reading the thing. Sadly with most of the major news outlets and many studies paid for with taxes, this policy of mine can be used very successfully.
@stinkycatfish: Some vehicles only have one large injector, but then have a rotary fuel distributor (6.2 GM diesel); others have individual mechanical injectors for each cylinder (old style 2 stroke Detroit Diesel). The electronic versions usually have individual electronic injectors similar to gasoline port injectors. There are some electronic units that had one fuel injector with a fuel distributor (I think the later 6.5 GM diesel).
"There's two pilot injections to quiet the engine that also help prepare for the main (third) injection. After the main injection, two more injections can be added as needed. The first for a little extra torque and the second — on the far end — for kicking off"
I like snakes. Especially Ford branded snakes. Cobras, Scorpions, etc etc. Wait a minute. That's only 2 snakes so far. I need more coffee to wake up from a groggy and drunk weekend. Pardon me.
@stoke has a JDM front wing: Give the guy a break, it is easy to think of a scorpion as a snake, just look at one. All those legs, claws and stinging tail are very snakelike. How do you tell them apart?
Yeah, yeah, there's the F-series, but that's boring. We've heard a suggestion for the Crown Vic... which I agree with wholeheartedly. Also the Mustang, would be a good option.
I'm thinking, maybe, an old Country Squire wagon. Mmmm. Tons of torque, towing ability, and reasonable fuel economy? Suddenly we have a great road-trip vehicle for the summer!
Edited by Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. at 08/31/09 1:18 PM
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was starred
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@Deartháir II: The Return: Not me, Om Nom. He came up with the idea of putting a Duramax diesel into a mid-sixties Chevy Impala wagon. My contribution was to suggest that it be named "Lenny". It's probably buried several months back on his wall or in the CSRSL galleries.
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was starred
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was unstarred
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was starred
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was unstarred
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was starred
Mike the Dog is sitting by the door with a pair of cow slippers, and a very sad face. was unstarred
Looks promising, but so did the 6.0PSD and look at what a mess that is.
I'm very happy for Ford and what a great job they're doing right now, definitely the top US OEM by leaps and bounds. But I'm not holding my breath on their in house diesel until we get some test rigs on the road with some miles on them. The 6.0PSD screw up between them and Navistar was a complete mess, mostly due to Ford's hands in Navistars honey pot. Let's give this diesel a few minutes of life before we declare it the savior of man.
Formerlythegreatestdriver promoted this comment
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Holy moley, what a testing regimen. The "shock loop" runs the engine at full power output until it's red hot (probably literally in a few spots), then shut down and pumped with -16 coolant until they can fire it up again at the same power setting. They do that for 75 hours!
Again I say, Ford appears to be the company to follow among American manufacturers.
Big diesel development: in house. GM: sucking off Isuzu's tit. Chrysler: third party supplier.
Backwards compatability for gearheads: this package fits in the current frame with no mods. Get the wrenches, honey!
Fuel economy: well, yeah. It's more efficient than the current model, so unless you flog it like a rented mule, it's going to go farther.
Innovation: Sequential single turbo? WTF? Then you read up on it. Yeah, it's seguential. And it's a single. Big power, small package, better thermal management - win, win, win.
Thinking outside of the box: what box? I don't see a box.
08/31/09
08/31/09
09/01/09
09/01/09
According to whom?
Unless your breathing directly out the tailpipe there is no risk, remember "dilution is a solution."
Who are you quoting here with the statement "("I like it when people get respiratory diseases and die young")"? I don’t remember anyone saying that.
09/01/09
Not quoting anyone in particular, just saying that tampering with diesel emissions control systems is not necessarily victimless (since the great-grandparent post referred to cutting off the catalysts.)
09/01/09
I bet the report does not in any way speak of the millions of lives that are vastly improved by the burning of diesel fuel.
09/01/09
09/01/09
I can guarantee you that if the agencies budget were based on reducing regulations, there would be no regulations at all.
09/01/09
Hate to poke holes in the study but it's fundamentally flawed with only one of the conclusions drawn in the first few lines. It mentions PORT facility. As in ships. Ships (most) run on No. 6 or No. 5 diesel, as in RFO, which is basically asphalt (without the sand and rock) or tar. This stuff /does/ leave some nasty ash behind as to which anyone who leaves their auto in a car park in Rotterdam can attest. No.2 which is used in autos has a much lower particulate count and a much lower sulphur count in specific. Cutting a long pet-chem lecture short, any auto diesel newer than Euro II spec (pretty much anything used where leaded petrol is NOT sold) is quite clean and is not a particulate problem as days of old. The big particulate problem is ships and trains, and yes, there are laws on the books going into play to address those issues.
09/01/09
09/01/09
Also the study paper uses a lot of terms like "may" and "suspect". In my branch of the sciences, a study holds much more water when terms such as "most probable [cause]" or "confirmed [through evidence cited]" or the like. For the sake of comparison of studies, compare this study in read with an US NTSB or UK AAIB air crash investigation.
The bottom line is that diesel 'soot' is much better than coal 'soot' and that our forefathers would have died exclusively of lung cancer in their 20's from coal fired 'everything' in the industrial revolution if soot were as dangerous as it was made out to be. Either that, or somehow diesel 'soot' is inherently more dangerous in North America.
Thanks for an interesting read!
09/02/09
It’s much easier when one looks to the source and its history of deceit and dismiss it as a bucketful of lies, than actually reading the thing. Sadly with most of the major news outlets and many studies paid for with taxes, this policy of mine can be used very successfully.
Thanks for reading it though.
08/31/09
08/31/09
I prefer the rattle from one large mechanical injector.
I'm going with injection.
08/31/09
(Pretty sure there isn't one injector for the entire engine.)
08/31/09
08/31/09
09/01/09
I should also remember how diesel engines work and have always had injectors...
08/31/09
Wow.
Out of context, that sounds really dirty.
...or fun...
08/31/09
It was a mid-to-late '80's Taurus which was beat-to-hell.
I've since heard a VW, and it's even quieter than that heap-O-Taurus.
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08/31/09
08/31/09
08/31/09
Yeah, yeah, there's the F-series, but that's boring. We've heard a suggestion for the Crown Vic... which I agree with wholeheartedly. Also the Mustang, would be a good option.
I'm thinking, maybe, an old Country Squire wagon. Mmmm. Tons of torque, towing ability, and reasonable fuel economy? Suddenly we have a great road-trip vehicle for the summer!
08/31/09
08/31/09
08/31/09
08/31/09
08/31/09
08/31/09
08/31/09
08/31/09
08/31/09
08/31/09
I'm very happy for Ford and what a great job they're doing right now, definitely the top US OEM by leaps and bounds. But I'm not holding my breath on their in house diesel until we get some test rigs on the road with some miles on them. The 6.0PSD screw up between them and Navistar was a complete mess, mostly due to Ford's hands in Navistars honey pot. Let's give this diesel a few minutes of life before we declare it the savior of man.
08/31/09
But are all the members of the Church of Global Warming here going to call this an Eco-Boost motor?
08/31/09
Why?
08/31/09
"I'm the Scorpion, and I'll probably bite the bullet cause I live by the gun."
08/31/09
08/31/09
08/31/09
That's what she said.
08/31/09
08/31/09
Again I say, Ford appears to be the company to follow among American manufacturers.
Big diesel development: in house. GM: sucking off Isuzu's tit. Chrysler: third party supplier.
Backwards compatability for gearheads: this package fits in the current frame with no mods. Get the wrenches, honey!
Fuel economy: well, yeah. It's more efficient than the current model, so unless you flog it like a rented mule, it's going to go farther.
Innovation: Sequential single turbo? WTF? Then you read up on it. Yeah, it's seguential. And it's a single. Big power, small package, better thermal management - win, win, win.
Thinking outside of the box: what box? I don't see a box.