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Detroit, 8:10 AM
Thu Dec 10
26 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of sos10 sos10
    05/19/09

    In reply to Chevy Volt Mule: First Drive
    It sounds all very promising, the only problem will be the price, especially if some foreign brand van introduce the same kind of car for half the price.
     Reply
    sos10 was starred sos10 was unstarred
    Image of Chuckie_A Chuckie_A
    05/19/09

    In reply to Chevy Volt Mule: First Drive
    Why do you need an engine of even 1.4l just to power a generator? Is it a parts bin item?
     Reply
    Chuckie_A was starred Chuckie_A was unstarred
    Image of Ben Wojdyla Ben Wojdyla
    05/19/09

    @Chuckie_A: It is a parts bin item, it'll be largely common with the chevy cruze, though the cruze will be a turbo version.
     Reply
    Ben Wojdyla was starred Ben Wojdyla was unstarred
    Image of felis_concolor felis_concolor
    05/19/09

    @Chuckie_A: For a series hybrid, the ideal power plant would precisely provide the mean power required over the entire trip - including periods where the vehicle was not being driven at all - and be set to run at WOT (its most efficient operating mode) to charge up the battery bank with programming that would recognize a basic start-stop "top-off" mode for in-city driving versus an "oh $#!+, we need to pour power back into the system now; we're going to be at freeway speeds for some time" highway mode. If the system were perfectly prescient you might well get away with a smaller capacity engine for the electrical generator, and for a commuter car which spends more time parking than moving around under its own power, the generator can recharge the system even while parked, which would reduce average power requirements even more. Compared to many compact car engines of the 70s and 80s, 1.4L is not especially tiny, but today's cars are bloated porkers in comparison, with a "compact" car often carrying as much weight as a late-70s G or Fox body. In this market, a 1.4L engine is a small fry; even Toyota's tiny Yaris and Honda's Fit sport larger ICEs under their hoods. I'll assume the engine is of higher displacement than might be absolutely, perfectly necessary in order to provide a comfortable margin over mean power requirements for extended highway cruising.


    Ben, that has me wondering if the engine was cycling at all during your test drive - and what were your impressions of it? I've felt the parallel hybrid systems were created specifically to be familiar to drivers who want to hear an engine spin up when they push the go-pedal, versus the "out of my hands" cycling of an independently controlled recharging system for the linear hybrid layout.

     Reply
    felis_concolor was starred felis_concolor was unstarred
    Image of Ben Wojdyla Ben Wojdyla
    05/19/09

    @felis_concolor: The system was well within it's 40 mile range, there was no engine cycling for this drive.


    And you aren't exactly correct on your assumptions on the way the generator works. It does not run at steady state and charge the batteries. In fact, once the batteries are depleted the engine doesn't charge them at all, it powers the motor and nothing more, responding to energy demands by revving up or down to meet the required load. The idea is to arrive home with an empty battery to take advantage of the cheapest possible energy source. Since electricity is so cheap compared to gas, using the generator to charge the batteries is a waste.

     Reply
    Ben Wojdyla was starred Ben Wojdyla was unstarred
    Image of Mike Delozier Mike Delozier
    05/19/09

    In reply to Chevy Volt Mule: First Drive
    Kinda sounds like the review that Jeremy Clarkson just did for the Honda Insight, but he ripped that car to shreds.. even more so than the Chrysler Sebring.

    I don't think the auto companies are doing too much R&D on these cars, just put a basic concept together and rush it to market.
     Reply
    Mike Delozier was starred Mike Delozier was unstarred
    Image of Ben Wojdyla Ben Wojdyla
    05/19/09

    @Mike Delozier: On the contrary, that it is unremarkable is a testament to the amount of engineering they've put into it. Drive a Prius or an Insight around and it's a terrible, terrible car. The Volt mule here is just a normal, every day car with a very extraordinary drive train.
     Reply
    Ben Wojdyla was starred Ben Wojdyla was unstarred
    Image of GV_Goat GV_Goat
    05/19/09

    In reply to Chevy Volt Mule: First Drive
    So... how many miles can you travel on a gallon of fuel?AND... wouldn't it be cool if the generator was a diesel???
     Reply
    GV_Goat was starred GV_Goat was unstarred
    Image of Mad_Science Mad_Science
    05/19/09

    @GV_Goat: Re: Diesel, yes. One of the advantages of this platform is that over time they can swap in different generator powerplants (or just more batteries) as needed.


    I'd say they probably didn't go diesel as it's still not as widely accepted in the US. They want to minimize the wierdness of this car to the general consumer.


    I believe it gets ~45mpg when running on generator power.

     Reply
    Mad_Science was starred Mad_Science was unstarred
    Image of robai robai
    05/19/09

    In reply to Chevy Volt Mule: First Drive
    Hey, this is a nice big leap backwards from the EV-1's that GM destroyed a few years ago.


    [en.wikipedia.org]

     Reply
    robai was starred robai was unstarred
    Image of Mad_Science Mad_Science
    05/19/09

    @robai: In terms of range, utility, price and acceptability you are wrong.
     Reply
    Mad_Science was starred Mad_Science was unstarred
    Image of ssurfer321 ssurfer321
    05/19/09

    @robai: Do yourself a favor and watch this.
     Reply
    ssurfer321 was starred ssurfer321 was unstarred
    Image of Mad_Science Mad_Science
    05/19/09

    @ssurfer321: You did notice he linked to it already, right?


    @robai: So, we're talking about the aesthetics of a Volt/Cruze mule versus a mid-90s science project?

     Reply
    Mad_Science was starred Mad_Science was unstarred
    Image of Ben Wojdyla Ben Wojdyla
    05/19/09

    @robai: Arg, nobody "killed" the EV1, see my comment above. And this is a much, much, much more advanced vehicle than the EV1.
     Reply
    Ben Wojdyla was starred Ben Wojdyla was unstarred
    Image of Ben Wojdyla Ben Wojdyla
    05/19/09

    @ssurfer321: Even the subtitle is idiotic on that picture.
     Reply
    Ben Wojdyla was starred Ben Wojdyla was unstarred
    Image of PowerTryp is holding a Fiesta party. PowerTryp is holding a Fiesta party.
    05/19/09

    In reply to Chevy Volt Mule: First Drive
    But the real question is, will they recall all of them and crush them? cause if so then shame. If only people had listened in the mid 90's to the EV-1 and Ford's electric Ranger.
     Reply
    PowerTryp is holding a Fiesta party. was starred PowerTryp is holding a Fiesta party. was unstarred
    Image of Ben Wojdyla Ben Wojdyla
    05/19/09

    @PowerTryp: sigh. the EV1 was not recalled. It was a leased vehicle with a limited field life. that was always the plan. GM did it to collect usage data for the next generation of the car... the Volt. They were crushed because leaving them in the field would have put GM at a tremendous liability risk.
     Reply
    Ben Wojdyla was starred Ben Wojdyla was unstarred
    Image of Karsten Von Urea for All Sales Event Karsten Von Urea for All Sales Event
    05/19/09

    In reply to Chevy Volt Mule: First Drive
    Chevy Volt


    More 'Merkin
    Less Smug


    This means I'm allowed to like it.

     Reply
    Karsten Von Urea for All Sales Event was starred Karsten Von Urea for All Sales Event was unstarred
    Image of bygeorge bygeorge
    05/19/09

    @Karsten Von Tide of Man-stein:


    "mer·kin (mûrkn) n.: (first use, according to the OED, 1617) a pubic wig, originally worn by prostitutes after shaving their genitalia to eliminate lice or disguise the marks of syphilis. "


    Yup, that sounds about right...

     Reply
    bygeorge was starred bygeorge was unstarred
    Image of MushyHeirloom MushyHeirloom
    05/19/09

    @bygeorge: I thought that too. Hearted.
     Reply
    MushyHeirloom was starred MushyHeirloom was unstarred
    Image of leavethegun-takethecannoli leavethegun-takethecannoli
    05/19/09

    In reply to Chevy Volt Mule: First Drive
    What happened to the edgy look?


    It gets more blah everytime I see it.


    That being said, I hope this works, because if they put a Cadddy body on this chassis, I would buy one.

     Reply
    leavethegun-takethecannoli was starred leavethegun-takethecannoli was unstarred
    Image of robot-shmobot robot-shmobot
    05/19/09

    @leavethegun-takethecannoli: That's because the put the Volt drive train in a 'mule'. A test car, per say. It's the body of a Chevy Cruze.
     Reply
    robot-shmobot was starred robot-shmobot was unstarred
    Image of Mad_Science Mad_Science
    05/19/09

    @leavethegun-takethecannoli: Reading comprehension fail.
     Reply
    Mad_Science was starred Mad_Science was unstarred
    Image of leavethegun-takethecannoli leavethegun-takethecannoli
    05/19/09

    @robot-shmobot: So they're going to go back to the "Volt" body style?


    Very cool then.

     Reply
    leavethegun-takethecannoli was starred leavethegun-takethecannoli was unstarred
    Image of leavethegun-takethecannoli leavethegun-takethecannoli
    05/19/09

    @Mad_Science: Totally.


    I just glanced right over the "volt-in-a-chevy-cruze" line.

     Reply
    leavethegun-takethecannoli was starred leavethegun-takethecannoli was unstarred
    Image of Mad_Science Mad_Science
    05/19/09

    In reply to Chevy Volt Mule: First Drive
    Good.


    GM gets (somewhat legitimate) green cred and props from the Feds their beholden to.


    All those people out there driving appliance cars that get ~30mpg can start driving these (or their competition) and get the equivalent of 50mpg or more.


    Less fuel consumption and emissions from the masses opens things up for the enthusiasts. Fuel prices will go down as demand decreases.


    As the air gets cleaner, people will be less stressed about whatever emissions are coming from assorted classics, sports cars or 4x4s driven the 5-10% of the population 10-20% of the time.

     Reply
    Mad_Science was starred Mad_Science was unstarred
    Image of Jeb_Hoge Jeb_Hoge
    05/19/09

    In reply to Chevy Volt Mule: First Drive
    I think this exactly hits the target that GM needs to hit.
     Reply
    Jeb_Hoge was starred Jeb_Hoge was unstarred
    Image of Joe-Btfsplk Joe-Btfsplk
    05/19/09

    @Jeb_Hoge:
    You mean the bottom of the canyon.... after they go over the cliff? They will never make a dime on this POS. Diesel is the way.
     Reply
    Joe-Btfsplk was starred Joe-Btfsplk was unstarred
    Image of Ben Wojdyla Ben Wojdyla
    05/19/09

    @Joe-Btfsplk: Not the way the government is regulating it. The 2010 emissions regs for diesels are damn near insane. The tech to make them clean is very expensive and americans still haven't bought into diesel. the voltec system is a good solution which is incredibly flexible in it's fuel source.
     Reply
    Ben Wojdyla was starred Ben Wojdyla was unstarred
    Image of Tiberiuswise is all ate up with sarcasm Tiberiuswise is all ate up with sarcasm
    05/19/09

    In reply to Chevy Volt Mule: First Drive
    Ok, so they hit the target. Let's hope they target a sporty and fun coupe sometime in the not too distant future.
     Reply
    Tiberiuswise is all ate up with sarcasm was starred Tiberiuswise is all ate up with sarcasm was unstarred
    Image of Ash78, cube farmer Ash78, cube farmer
    05/19/09

    @Tiberiuswise: IIRC, the Volt platform was supposed to be easily scaled to a lot of different vehicles (I seem to remember a rolling chassis that could be used for almost anything). So I'd expect a small SUV and sports car to show up pretty soon, spread the costs around, hopefully net the General a profit on the line.
     Reply
    Ash78, cube farmer was starred Ash78, cube farmer was unstarred
    Image of aSoundofSleep-less nights aSoundofSleep-less nights
    05/19/09

    In reply to Chevy Volt Mule: First Drive
    Whenever I hear the words "appliance-like" to describe a car I imagine a microwave in the glove-box, a blender in the armrest, and a vibrator mounted in a trap door in the passenger seat for the Misses.
     Reply
    aSoundofSleep-less nights was starred aSoundofSleep-less nights was unstarred
    Image of A strolling player got drunk and A strolling player got drunk and
    05/19/09

    @aSoundofSleep: See, no, that would be awesome.
     Reply
    A strolling player got drunk and was starred A strolling player got drunk and was unstarred
    Image of Flathead Smith Flathead Smith
    05/19/09

    In reply to Chevy Volt Mule: First Drive
    I asked this question sort of yesterday. What happens with those Lithium batteries when this thing gets in a bad wreck and those batteries have an internal short? Regular lead acid batteries can be very dangerous in a situation like that. It is my understanding that Lithium batteries can be even more destructive. I guess we will let the lawyers decide that when the first person survives the wreck, but not the batteries.
     Reply
    Flathead Smith was starred Flathead Smith was unstarred
    Image of Ben Wojdyla Ben Wojdyla
    05/19/09

    @Flathead Smith: They're actually pretty inert. You can drive a nail through them and nothing terrible happens.
     Reply
    Ben Wojdyla was starred Ben Wojdyla was unstarred
    Image of dataPOG dataPOG
    05/19/09

    @Flathead Smith: if it is dry there should be no problem.


    If it is raining, I wouldn't want to be near it as there is a chance of a boom....

     Reply
    dataPOG was starred dataPOG was unstarred
    Image of Mad_Science Mad_Science
    05/19/09

    @dataPOG: Water is not an issue.


    General wetness is too resistive to be a problem.


    @Flathead Smith: I dunno, but they managed to work out that whole 10-30 gallons of highly volatile and flammable liquid gasoline issue.

     Reply
    Mad_Science was starred Mad_Science was unstarred
    Image of A strolling player got drunk and A strolling player got drunk and
    05/19/09

    In reply to Chevy Volt Mule: First Drive
    There's something wickedly cool about surging acceleration with no roar to back it up. I ran out of gas in my car once and, while I had a bit of a freak-out (they don't exactly ease you into it: you get the Red Triange of Death along with an empty (no dots at all) fuel gauge and a screen that just says "Problem"), I had a fun little drive to the gas station about half a mile away.


    So the Volt was pretty much what it's supposed to be. No surprise there. It's still a really rad system, something that could sensibly see common use not far in the future. Not that many people drive more than forty miles in a day, after all, and this car gives them the choice to do either.

     Reply
    A strolling player got drunk and was starred A strolling player got drunk and was unstarred
    Image of MustangMike MustangMike
    05/19/09

    @A stʁolling playeʁ: Is this wickedly cool like getting caught by your girlfriend with her mom, or wickedly cool like finding a $20 in your coat pocket from last year?
     Reply
    MustangMike was starred MustangMike was unstarred
    Image of A strolling player got drunk and A strolling player got drunk and
    05/19/09

    @MustangMike: More like getting absurdly drunk, blacking out, and waking up the next morning in Prague. No idea how you got there, but hey, you're in Prague!
     Reply
    A strolling player got drunk and was starred A strolling player got drunk and was unstarred
    Image of Dhillaz 2.0 Dhillaz 2.0
    05/19/09

    @MustangMike:
    "There's something wickedly cool about surging acceleration with no roar to back it up."


    Or wickedly cool like sneaking up on kids and running them over.

     Reply
    Dhillaz 2.0 was starred Dhillaz 2.0 was unstarred
    Image of leavethegun-takethecannoli leavethegun-takethecannoli
    05/19/09

    @A stʁolling playeʁ: Congrats on the COTD.


    I would think the acceleration would be better. It is fairly torquey, no?

     Reply
    leavethegun-takethecannoli was starred leavethegun-takethecannoli was unstarred
    Image of Paul Y. can't get in the club; gotta parking lot pimp Paul Y. can't get in the club; gotta parking lot pimp
    05/19/09

    @A stʁolling playeʁ: I think that just means it's time to go looking for a Tatra hell project when that happens.
     Reply
    Paul Y. can't get in the club; gotta parking lot pimp was starred Paul Y. can't get in the club; gotta parking lot pimp was unstarred
    Image of pj134 pj134
    05/19/09

    @Dhillaz: they need a vette volt, so you can roll up on the kids in silent electric mode, then rev the mother up to red line right behind em with open headers on it... that would be glorious.
     Reply
    pj134 was starred pj134 was unstarred
    Image of HurtsSoGood HurtsSoGood
    05/19/09

    @pj134: But it wouldn't do that. It would just go, silently. The gas engine would kick in, and charge the system, but it would also work at peak efficiency, which one only hopes is also fairly quiet. It would not, however, go to the red line.
     Reply
    HurtsSoGood was starred HurtsSoGood was unstarred
    Image of Joe-Btfsplk Joe-Btfsplk
    05/19/09

    @A stʁolling playeʁ:
    $35,000 POS.
     Reply
    Joe-Btfsplk was starred Joe-Btfsplk was unstarred
    Image of A strolling player got drunk and A strolling player got drunk and
    05/19/09

    @Joe-Btfsplk: Thank you for a useful and enlightening comment.
     Reply
    A strolling player got drunk and was starred A strolling player got drunk and was unstarred
    Image of Ash78, cube farmer Ash78, cube farmer
    05/19/09

    In reply to Chevy Volt Mule: First Drive
    Good stuff. I hope it's got the goods on the consumer end of things, since Toyota's been doing the "eco" branding thing for a decade now. GM has some catching up to do, but this might well do it.


    There are no more large elephants in the room, only hundreds of small ones


    I love seeing cynical Germans tweak English idioms.

     Reply
    Ash78, cube farmer was starred Ash78, cube farmer was unstarred
    Image of combat chuck combat chuck
    05/19/09

    @Ash78: Is this what he's talking about?
     Reply
    combat chuck was starred combat chuck was unstarred
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