Big deal. What, 400 horsepower for under 35k isn't enough? We really need a 570 horse version?
Shit, if you strapped the engines of every car I've owned into 1 vehicle, it still wouldn't equal 570 horsepower. Besides, the Z28 name has been irreversibly tarnished by garish tape stripes and mullets.
If FromaBuick6 has to watch one more Chevy commercial, he's going to punch Howie Long in the face was starred
If FromaBuick6 has to watch one more Chevy commercial, he's going to punch Howie Long in the face was unstarred
I remember the REAL, original Z-28, '66 or '67. It was a full-up, real, honest-to-goodness race car thinly veiled as a street machine. It had been designed to run in the SCCA's TransAm Series... you know, when they used to race real cars? It had one of the best engines Chevy ever produced, a 302 ci mill made from, if I recall correctly, a 327 block with a 283 crank. Bingo: 5 liters. The engine could rev to over 8,000 no problem, the blueprinting and balancing didn't hurt. It produced an under-stated 400 hp.
I remember when a good friend of mine from high school returned from his tour in Viet Nam as a helicopter pilot. He told us he wanted to buy a car but he wasn't familiar with what was available. Me and my buddies looked at each other and said in unison: "Z-28!" So he called around and found a Z-28 for sale at a dealership. I still remember. We walked into the back warehouse. It was completely empty except for one light grey Z-28 in the corner. He bought it on the spot, drove it over to a local tire dealer and exchanged the stock wheels and tires for some mags and glass-belted radials (the hot setup at the time). Then, he went off to be stationed at an Army base in North Carolina. He wrote a few times before we lost contact with him. He loved his Z-28 and the twisty roads in the area. He and his Army buddies would go out road racing. The cops got to know them and left them alone, they were vets, after all.
Another thing I remember about that original was that it had no mufflers. There was a section of exhaust pipe that was sort of corrugated. At low rpms, the corrugation broke up the pulses of exhaust and made a reasonably "quiet" note. But at speed, the corrugation was ineffective and the exhaust was effectively wide open. Man, did that thing scream!
All other Z-28s may have been good cars but the original was the best, no doubt. A factory hot rod if there ever was one.
@TR3-A: That's what I was thinking, between the excess curb weight and the mediocre review (given the use of the Zeta platform), I'd hope any Z28 baed on this generation would be more hardcore than what we've already got.
@P161911 misses weekday Murilee: Damn HTML, So basically GM just wanted to confuse people, the NEW SS (is less than) Z-28. So what next a 600 HP RS or maybe a 650 HP Berlinetta?
I'm a fan of the General, but I can see why they are in trouble. $50 million to swap some badges, and add a few catalog bits from Edelbrock? I think some fat could be trimmed from that program budget. $50 million? That's ground-up development money, right there.
@smalleyxb122: er, no. not even close to ground up money. That's styling, engineering and tooling for new body parts, engineering, sourcing and tooling for new engine bits, engineering, sourcing, and tooling for suspension upgrades and durability testing for the whole deal. Even then 50 million is a stretch.
@Ben Wojdyla: I will concede that ground up was a bit of hyperbole on my part, but $50 million still seems steep. I maintain that a completely "new" parts bin vehicle could be developed with that kind of budget. And with 95% in common with the Camaro that is coming to market, the remaining development costs should be relatively minimal. Much of it, they could parts bin-gineer using existing high performance parts in their arsenal. Sharing the platform with the SS, and motivation shared with some level of ZR1 tune, "development" is pared down to Brakes and suspension (some of which could be shared with the Corvette?) and minor cosmetics. They could have a test mule together for under $500k in less than 3 months, with subsequent mules for durability coming in at less than half that. Using proven parts shortens the development cycle dramatically, and minimizes the number of necessary iterations within durability testing. And very little new tooling is required. Without the need for expensive new dies, the (unique to the Z-28) tooling budget could (should) be able to stay within a few million.
Any change to the drive train, etc will result in both new design costs and most likely new tooling. Not to mention validation and calibration is all redone top to bottom. Then you have to crash test everything again, it just adds up, fast.
So yes, you could build a few mules for way less, but actually getting them production ready, with robust parts isn't gonna happen for cheap.
Do you think that GM wants to kill this if they could afford not to? What is your explanation for motive then if the numbers are a lie?
@rlj676-Carbon Footprint Size - Clownshoe: As a former contractor for a contractor (yes, twice removed), I've seen the costs involved in development of completely new components. This is a case specific argument that is dependent on how little is actually "new". I assume that there is more new than I am imagining, but also that there is more new than would truly be necessary for them to bring to market a Camaro badged "Z-28".
As Roush, Saleen and about half a million other companies have proven with the Mustang, there is a healthy aftermarket ecosystem for pony cars.
Once the Camaro production line gets cranking, we're going to see Yenko, COPO, and IROC homages that will make the cancelled Z28 look like the Cavalier z24 you had in college.
As the convertible was engineered along side the coupe, I have no doubt that it will become available in a year or so, the economy willing.
How is my mullet going to look windswept when I emerge triumphantly from my Camaro after a raw and vigorous burnout...only to find the acid smoke if burning brain cells and rotten Chinese food that fell out the door-less backseat during my shenanigans?
HEY WERT and or BEN.. I just had an idea.. Yous guys know about this kinda shit, with peoples in all kinds places...
How much do CARS actually cost. Like what is the price to engineer, design, build a car. Preferably a standard: Like the Silverado F-1fitty Accord Fusion Malibu.
What is the going price to make a car from scratch? And how is it (stupid question time) that Fitty mil. is expensive?
Did they spend more than that to engineer the Lambda, Lambda, lambda Lambda quads.
Shit knows they spent more on that to build the failed GTO, and Solstice / Sky twins..?
@Accordforall: You'd need to define it more. Because so many cars share platforms and/or components from dozens of different cars, what do you mean? Are you referring to a start-from-scratch, nothing-in-the-bin approach? If so, look at the prices for hand-built hypercars, and there's your answer.
@Accordforall: A ground-up new platform is about a billion for mass production. Something like an all new Accord. The price goes up as complexity is introduced. the many body styles of F-150 might bring the total into the 1.25 -1.5 billion range. Model refreshes cost between a third and a half of a clean sheet project.
Variants... er... vary. It's highly dependent on volume and content.
Fifty million is cheap for a variant program, but GM is strapped so they're cutting everything they can.
@engineerd is functionally ЯetardeD: Seriously...do you have a stash of material that you sit at home writing and cached in a spreadsheet for the off chance there might be a reference to any particular topic?
"Let's see here; Oh it's a GM topic (filters for GM) and it's about Camaros (filters models) and its tragic (no filter option) Ah what do we have here?! Yes my R.E.M. spin off should fit this topic just fine. Copy, paste...alrighty COTD let's get it on!"
@Everyone: Sorry, it just came to me. When I saw the headline I thought, "Well, that's the end of the muscle car age." Which led to me starting to hum "Its the end of the world as we know it..." which led to this.
I don't have a spreadsheet of ideas (although that is a *fantastic* idea). Just ADHD and a desire to procrastinate.
Which is why I'm still at work on a Friday afternoon when I should be home.
@parramore64: 304HP is less then a six cylinder Ford Taurus. In Camaro's defense, people who mock six cylinder engines in muscle cars ought to look back to the original I6-equipped Ford Mustang, or the Iron Duke Camaro. 304HP is a higher figure then my cousin's 305-equipped '89 Camaro.
The worst part.... Look at the fit and finish of the Camaro in the shot.. my god, thats awful.
Talk about panel GAPS. Ya got a square slot, with a round bulb, and ya got a squircilly (todays new word) adapter shiny thingy attempting to keep the light from spilling into the spaces for snot on both sides.
Even better.. The gaps on the nose cone against the body of the vehicle.
Also nice to know, that they can put a badge on evenly.
03/20/09
03/21/09
03/20/09
Wait, what?
03/20/09
Shit, if you strapped the engines of every car I've owned into 1 vehicle, it still wouldn't equal 570 horsepower. Besides, the Z28 name has been irreversibly tarnished by garish tape stripes and mullets.
03/20/09
I remember when a good friend of mine from high school returned from his tour in Viet Nam as a helicopter pilot. He told us he wanted to buy a car but he wasn't familiar with what was available. Me and my buddies looked at each other and said in unison: "Z-28!" So he called around and found a Z-28 for sale at a dealership. I still remember. We walked into the back warehouse. It was completely empty except for one light grey Z-28 in the corner. He bought it on the spot, drove it over to a local tire dealer and exchanged the stock wheels and tires for some mags and glass-belted radials (the hot setup at the time). Then, he went off to be stationed at an Army base in North Carolina. He wrote a few times before we lost contact with him. He loved his Z-28 and the twisty roads in the area. He and his Army buddies would go out road racing. The cops got to know them and left them alone, they were vets, after all.
Another thing I remember about that original was that it had no mufflers. There was a section of exhaust pipe that was sort of corrugated. At low rpms, the corrugation broke up the pulses of exhaust and made a reasonably "quiet" note. But at speed, the corrugation was ineffective and the exhaust was effectively wide open. Man, did that thing scream!
All other Z-28s may have been good cars but the original was the best, no doubt. A factory hot rod if there ever was one.
03/21/09
03/20/09
then it will not slip on the supercharger pulleys
CARRY ON!
03/20/09
03/20/09
So we won't have a $50k Camaro called a Z28. We never had one anyway.
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
Nope.
Any change to the drive train, etc will result in both new design costs and most likely new tooling. Not to mention validation and calibration is all redone top to bottom. Then you have to crash test everything again, it just adds up, fast.
So yes, you could build a few mules for way less, but actually getting them production ready, with robust parts isn't gonna happen for cheap.
Do you think that GM wants to kill this if they could afford not to? What is your explanation for motive then if the numbers are a lie?
03/20/09
03/20/09
Once the Camaro production line gets cranking, we're going to see Yenko, COPO, and IROC homages that will make the cancelled Z28 look like the Cavalier z24 you had in college.
As the convertible was engineered along side the coupe, I have no doubt that it will become available in a year or so, the economy willing.
03/20/09
/drool
03/20/09
How is my mullet going to look windswept when I emerge triumphantly from my Camaro after a raw and vigorous burnout...only to find the acid smoke if burning brain cells and rotten Chinese food that fell out the door-less backseat during my shenanigans?
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
I just had an idea..
Yous guys know about this kinda shit, with peoples in all kinds places...
How much do CARS actually cost.
Like what is the price to engineer, design, build a car.
Preferably a standard:
Like the Silverado
F-1fitty
Accord
Fusion
Malibu.
What is the going price to make a car from scratch?
And how is it (stupid question time) that Fitty mil. is expensive?
Did they spend more than that to engineer the Lambda, Lambda, lambda Lambda quads.
Shit knows they spent more on that to build the failed GTO, and Solstice / Sky twins..?
03/20/09
03/20/09
Variants... er... vary. It's highly dependent on volume and content.
Fifty million is cheap for a variant program, but GM is strapped so they're cutting everything they can.
03/20/09
SirNotAppearing is not afraid. Eye of a hurricane, listen to yourself churn -
Top Gear serves its own needs, don't misserve your own needs. Feed it up a knock,
speed, ping no, horsepower no. Fiesta movement clatter with fear of height,
down height. Wire in a fire, represent the Jalopnik in a music festival and a blog site. Left her, wasn't coming in a hurry with Megan Fox
breathing down your neck. Star by star commenters baffled, trump, tethered
crop. Look at that fast plane! Fine then. Uh oh, overflow, population,
slow load, but it'll do. Save yourself, serve yourself. Chevy serves its
own needs, listen to your heart bleed. Tell me with the rapture and the
reverent in the right - right. You vitriolic, patriotic, slam, fight, bright
light, feeling pretty psyched.
It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine.
03/20/09
My comment now means nothing. You are too clever for us. Go back to your home on Clever Island. Jerk.
03/20/09
@wrx-tyrannosaurusWrx:
03/20/09
"Let's see here; Oh it's a GM topic (filters for GM) and it's about Camaros (filters models) and its tragic (no filter option) Ah what do we have here?! Yes my R.E.M. spin off should fit this topic just fine. Copy, paste...alrighty COTD let's get it on!"
03/20/09
03/20/09
I don't have a spreadsheet of ideas (although that is a *fantastic* idea). Just ADHD and a desire to procrastinate.
Which is why I'm still at work on a Friday afternoon when I should be home.
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
No, but your significant other can. And probably will.
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
I never thought Id actually say this... (not in my life time).
I think its a fuckin shame, that the conv and Z28 wont make it to production. (Also sucks that the top is being engineered by a german conpany also..)
But I actually have [www.diecastfast.com]
And it would be AWESOME to be driving that around..
But then again.. it is what it is.
03/20/09
Maybe they just couldn't find any domestic artisans. Is there a Seamsters Union?
03/20/09
The worst part....
Look at the fit and finish of the Camaro in the shot.. my god, thats awful.
Talk about panel GAPS. Ya got a square slot, with a round bulb, and ya got a squircilly (todays new word) adapter shiny thingy attempting to keep the light from spilling into the spaces for snot on both sides.
Even better..
The gaps on the nose cone against the body of the vehicle.
Also nice to know, that they can put a badge on evenly.
03/20/09
Normally I'd say you were being sarcastic, but for some reason I think you're being serious about criticizing the panel gaps on a 30-year old car.