I dont think this will happen during the carpocolypse, BUT...
the mustang has its cobra, the vette the z06 and now the zr1, and the G8 has the GXP.
could the camaro be saved by a halo model? throw a LS7 in it, refine the suspension for a more involved driver experience? Obviously the G8 shares the same base, could the camaro be refined to the same level? or do you think its a lost cause.
I absolutely love how everyone read what they wanted see in this article.
Even as a Camaro fan, I found the article middle of the road at best. A little bad for each group, a little good. I find it odd to focus so heavily on a "light" steering feel when that has been a staple of every rwd gm for years. Whats wrong with light or flickable steering? At least it doesn't wallow like a sick whale in the corners.
@Devryn: I think the reason Wes focused on it was because he felt the steering was better in the Camaro's main competitor (the new Mustang).
But you're right, I think people are looking for what they want to see in this review. If people stepped back and took a more objective look at the new mullet-mobile, I think they'd see it's not entirely peaches n' cream. It's an epic vehicle, one that I'm even considering buying, but it's certainly not perfect.
So take a moment to step back and look at this first drive for what it is -- an honest and positive review of a car that we're all happy to have back.
@Ray Wert: That is cetainly how I took it. All reviews are subjective to a persons personal preferences.
I'm not thrilled about the design of the interior, but I do like it better than the 09 or 10 Mustang. I'm not surprised on the comments about the plastic aren't surprising but there was no mention about how this relates to a simple cruise (quiet cabin, or noisy/rattling?) In the end, thats what will matter to me. Despite the fact that the Challengers interior is a copy-paste of other lx cars, I like it the best of the three thus far.
The only thing I ask is that this, my most trusted site of automotive information, NOT pull a MotorTrend...You know, like in a test of the new "muscle cars":
1) include a requisite foreign POS that performs mediocre in every test but somehow becomes rated #1 because in a "performance shootout" its not always about recordable numbers (you know, like that big phat check nobody reported that came from VW rating the most mediocre car of the group their #1 over the complete surprise that was the lauded Chevy Cobalt)
2) They will only include the American muscle (as it should be), but will once again name the car of the year on some intangible (like that phat check from Ford for last years truck of the year when the Dodge performed better in every test)
@Devryn: "..include a requisite foreign POS that performs mediocre in every test but somehow becomes rated #1 because in a "performance shootout" its not always about recordable numbers (you know, like that big phat check nobody reported that came from VW rating the most mediocre car of the group their #1 over the complete surprise that was the lauded Chevy Cobalt)..."
Using correct grammar and sentence construction will improve the likelihood that your message is transmitted as you intended. The message above is unclear. However, if your 'foreign POS' invective is intended to influence buyers who prefer to look at actual performance in their comparisons, you must know that you will be dismissed out of hand as another mullet with poor earning potential and a greasy Klan hood.
Most commenters here will fairly compare domestic and transplant and import vehicles, with the exception of a few domestic apologists with vaguely racist and xenophobic agendas. In fact, despite the tendency of Jalopniks to love old Detroit iron, because of how much of it we have wrenched on, most of us actually like working on pretty much all types of vehicles, where ever they come from.
So choose how you want to be seen. It can be fun to be a clown. But that does make it hard to be taken seriously. You've been around here long enough to notice that.
@DoctorNine: Actually my comment was in reference to Motortrends recent article in which the Cobalt performed the best in every test but somehow the most middle of the road car, the Golf, was chosen as their #1.
I like all makes of cars, but as referenced in my post, a "Muscle" car comparison should not include anything not American like a Genesis. That's exactly what I said, and if you were even semi-proficient at reading comprehension, you would realize that.
@Devryn: "..Actually my comment was in reference to Motortrends recent article in which the Cobalt performed the best in every test but somehow the most middle of the road car, the Golf, was chosen as their #1..."
I gathered that, from the 'foreign POS' remark. The Golf was chosen, because it is BETTER. There really ARE other things besides numbers that make a car more enjoyable and livable. Your opinion notwithstanding.
Just look at how well that VW is doing compared to GM, and you will see that they are BETTER than GM at the job of designing and building cars that people want. Being a GM fanboy, despite their obvious glaring flaws as a manufacturer, just shows that your opinions are disposable. People who navigate Jalopnik looking for educated opinion, are just going to ignore talk like that. Most people here have a lot of experience with cars and car culture. They will be looking for objective comparisons between various alternatives. NOT 'social media' hype. You lose.
".."Muscle" car comparison should not include anything not American like a Genesis ..."
This is simply your assertion. Modern muscle can come from Mercedes, Chevrolet, or even Hyundai these days. Just because you can't see that, doesn't mean that you get to dictate journalistic comparisons, which educated buyers might be reading to make their decisions in the marketplace. They will be shopping those brands, for the same reasons, so the comparison is valid. America isn't the beginning and end of ANYTHING automotive these days, so get over it.
"..and if you were even semi-proficient at reading comprehension..."
Oh, I'm proficient enough to pick holes in your poor logic, while I'm simultaneously drinking Balvenie and watching the NCAA tournament on the side.
Compared to the exterior, I feel like the RS model interior falls WAAAAAY short of where it should be. the exterior is awesome, the zeta platform plus the 304hp direct-injected DOHC V6 and the ford/GM codeveloped 6-speed auto(best auto transmission on the planet in EITHER brand's rendition) should have had this car getting praise lavished upon it despite all the spy/press shots, previews and shows it's appeared at. Frankly, I'm disappointed with what i read in it's entirety here, but it also confirmed my gut suspicion that this car just isn't as cool as a Challenger or Mustang as a package. that's right, I said the Challenger is cooler. for the love of god why does the v6 model not get leather-wrapped touchy bits (shifter, wheel) and some better-textured plastics on the doors, dash, and center console? It's being implied with this ride that I'd have to get the fully-loaded V8 model to get any tactile bits. the 2010 Mustang GT at this point practically screams "better buy" to me at this point.
Great review, Wes. Like everything in the universe besides some commenters on here, it's not perfect, but it hauls balls, it looks good, and it's got a monster engine in it.
I have to admit I loved hearing the stands up well to it. Sure, hp-wise it gets owned, but it's still in the conversation. Buy an 09 GT, throw some Ford Racing parts in it, and compete with the SS at a price just slightly above the V6 Maro.
@eggwich del fiero motorola phone fat rims and a Kenwood: It seems, though, that despite being competitive on performance, the Camaro's much better in the twisties (if rather numb). Of course, in this market segment, that doesn't matter.
Instead of 0% for 60 Months as an incentive, they should just give you 60 Pabst Blue Ribbon Beers with a mullet wig that has a flag bandanna on it. That would be sweet! Also, doesn't anyone think that we should be getting more than the low 400 HP for a 6.2L engine? Just a thought. 2010 Mustang is still better, it is more refined and it has that European feel. Viva La Ford Beotches!
Wes, in your write up, you have stated that you loved the latest crop of GM product. The ZR-1, at over $100,000 is something that is out of the average everyday car purchaser. The Cadillac CTS, OK, that's a nice car, but I think it's stagnating right now. The G8; I really don't see a future for this car in the US beyond 2011, since Pontiac will no longer be anything. Now the Camaro, and it has a good chance of Succeeding in the market, if only the first few thousand can sell without Chevy Dealers tacking additional dealer markup. However, I also see this car stagnating in the future, because GM needs all the development budget for the real boring cars they need to sell to the rest of us.
@UDMan: The CTS has only been out a year, but it's the CTS-V (556 HP) that I'm really interested in. GM raised the bar with all three of those cars, the Camaro failed to jump high enough.
BTW: This car demands more than just a three-part road test. Its innate importance to consumer perspective of the parent corporation, and the symbolic Americana personified in its purposeful scowl and powerful haunches warrant deeper exploration. The engineering ingenuity embodied by these amazing engines must be ruminated over on more than just a few laps around town.
This calls for more than a cursory glance, a quick once around the block. No, this calls for something bigger, more meaningful, more monumental.
All the other reviews for it have been pretty positive and the performance can't be denied. Edmunds had it running one tick off 111mph through the quarter, that's hauling serious ass in a stock car of that size.
I even think the interior is appropriate for the type of car this is, these types of cars are not something you buy based on interior luxuries or quality. You buy them becuase they are big, loud, fast and badass. The sissy stuff is just that, for sissies.
@TriShield: Who're you calling a sissy? People buy cars like this as their only vehicle and GM hopes it'll be cross shopped with vehicle like the Audi TT and Infiniti G37, the interior quality is extremely relevant. If all you want is 1/4 mile, buy an F body and mod it. That's got mold-strips on the interior B-pillars and a plastic tennis ball for a shift knob.
@Wes Siler: Now I'm conflicted. I can stand behind what new muscle should and shouldn't be expected to do well, yet the manufacturer's own goals sharpen the critique where there'd otherwise be leniency.
@Wes Siler: Based on a few of your comments here, I'm assuming that's what GM told you.
Had it been presented in a different light, would your critique be different?
Had they said "We're shooting to take away 40% of Mustang sales and boot the Challenger to the curb because we're faster and better looking", would you be more forgiving?
Elsewhere you'll find me ranting about not caring about interior bits. That doesn't apply to driver interface.
@Mad_Science: Yeah, every new car comes with a list of competitors its aiming for. The Camaro is faster than all of its, but doesn't do so well in other areas.
Here's something I've always wondered, ever since the Introduction of the New Beetle: With all these retro-futuristic designs, where do next? If we evolve these vehicles like their forefathers, will we have a bunch of Mustang II and early F-Body lookalikes?
One can only wonder how limiting a redesign like this will be. Remember when people were shitting on themselves to get at a PT Cruiser? Or a Beetle? When's the last time those designs looked fresh?
Seems to me like the surest way to destroy the market value for a vehicle in a short amount of time is to base a design off the nostalgic pinings of your middle aged focus group. Good luck Chevy, you will need it.
@1dollar93: I agree with your point, but not applied to the Camaro.
I don't see this design as retro, so much as a truly contemporary design that's obviously traceable to the original. There's plenty of room to evolve this one gracefully (unlike the 2010 Mustang, which I don't think is particularly handsome).
@1dollar93: "What's next" is that with new energy sources, the archetype of automotive perfection will shift to form that follows the new functional imperatives. Just give it time. Petroleum ICE centered designs are just about played out. We are on the brink of a new revolution. Frankly, people should be as excited as hell about that, but instead, they react with fear and loathing.
@1dollar93: Well, if the Mini's any indication, "make the car less interesting and less Mini" is the answer. If we're going by the New Beetle, it's "kill the engines that didn't suck and make it ugly".
03/26/09
03/22/09
03/21/09
I dont think this will happen during the carpocolypse, BUT...
the mustang has its cobra, the vette the z06 and now the zr1, and the G8 has the GXP.
could the camaro be saved by a halo model? throw a LS7 in it, refine the suspension for a more involved driver experience? Obviously the G8 shares the same base, could the camaro be refined to the same level? or do you think its a lost cause.
cheers
03/21/09
And call me Wes, not "reviewer" please.
03/21/09
Even as a Camaro fan, I found the article middle of the road at best. A little bad for each group, a little good. I find it odd to focus so heavily on a "light" steering feel when that has been a staple of every rwd gm for years. Whats wrong with light or flickable steering? At least it doesn't wallow like a sick whale in the corners.
03/21/09
But you're right, I think people are looking for what they want to see in this review. If people stepped back and took a more objective look at the new mullet-mobile, I think they'd see it's not entirely peaches n' cream. It's an epic vehicle, one that I'm even considering buying, but it's certainly not perfect.
So take a moment to step back and look at this first drive for what it is -- an honest and positive review of a car that we're all happy to have back.
03/21/09
I'm not thrilled about the design of the interior, but I do like it better than the 09 or 10 Mustang. I'm not surprised on the comments about the plastic aren't surprising but there was no mention about how this relates to a simple cruise (quiet cabin, or noisy/rattling?) In the end, thats what will matter to me. Despite the fact that the Challengers interior is a copy-paste of other lx cars, I like it the best of the three thus far.
The only thing I ask is that this, my most trusted site of automotive information, NOT pull a MotorTrend...You know, like in a test of the new "muscle cars":
1) include a requisite foreign POS that performs mediocre in every test but somehow becomes rated #1 because in a "performance shootout" its not always about recordable numbers (you know, like that big phat check nobody reported that came from VW rating the most mediocre car of the group their #1 over the complete surprise that was the lauded Chevy Cobalt)
2) They will only include the American muscle (as it should be), but will once again name the car of the year on some intangible (like that phat check from Ford for last years truck of the year when the Dodge performed better in every test)
03/21/09
Using correct grammar and sentence construction will improve the likelihood that your message is transmitted as you intended. The message above is unclear. However, if your 'foreign POS' invective is intended to influence buyers who prefer to look at actual performance in their comparisons, you must know that you will be dismissed out of hand as another mullet with poor earning potential and a greasy Klan hood.
Most commenters here will fairly compare domestic and transplant and import vehicles, with the exception of a few domestic apologists with vaguely racist and xenophobic agendas. In fact, despite the tendency of Jalopniks to love old Detroit iron, because of how much of it we have wrenched on, most of us actually like working on pretty much all types of vehicles, where ever they come from.
So choose how you want to be seen. It can be fun to be a clown. But that does make it hard to be taken seriously. You've been around here long enough to notice that.
03/21/09
I like all makes of cars, but as referenced in my post, a "Muscle" car comparison should not include anything not American like a Genesis. That's exactly what I said, and if you were even semi-proficient at reading comprehension, you would realize that.
03/21/09
I gathered that, from the 'foreign POS' remark. The Golf was chosen, because it is BETTER. There really ARE other things besides numbers that make a car more enjoyable and livable. Your opinion notwithstanding.
Just look at how well that VW is doing compared to GM, and you will see that they are BETTER than GM at the job of designing and building cars that people want. Being a GM fanboy, despite their obvious glaring flaws as a manufacturer, just shows that your opinions are disposable. People who navigate Jalopnik looking for educated opinion, are just going to ignore talk like that. Most people here have a lot of experience with cars and car culture. They will be looking for objective comparisons between various alternatives. NOT 'social media' hype. You lose.
".."Muscle" car comparison should not include anything not American like a Genesis ..."
This is simply your assertion. Modern muscle can come from Mercedes, Chevrolet, or even Hyundai these days. Just because you can't see that, doesn't mean that you get to dictate journalistic comparisons, which educated buyers might be reading to make their decisions in the marketplace. They will be shopping those brands, for the same reasons, so the comparison is valid. America isn't the beginning and end of ANYTHING automotive these days, so get over it.
"..and if you were even semi-proficient at reading comprehension..."
Oh, I'm proficient enough to pick holes in your poor logic, while I'm simultaneously drinking Balvenie and watching the NCAA tournament on the side.
Cheers.
03/21/09
The V8 uses 6L80.
03/21/09
03/21/09
03/21/09
Oh, and I'll take my SS in black please.
03/21/09
03/21/09
03/21/09
03/20/09
I have to admit I loved hearing the stands up well to it. Sure, hp-wise it gets owned, but it's still in the conversation. Buy an 09 GT, throw some Ford Racing parts in it, and compete with the SS at a price just slightly above the V6 Maro.
03/20/09
03/21/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
No, not even a lorry.
I'd put the mullet wig on a skull and mount it on the hood of my Volvo. It wouldn't fit over my ponytail.
03/20/09
03/21/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
This calls for more than a cursory glance, a quick once around the block. No, this calls for something bigger, more meaningful, more monumental.
This calls for a road trip.
I call shotgun.
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/21/09
03/20/09
And the hot junk they're gauging is hot. Yes. That is some hot car. An eyeful and an earful. Welcome back, Cameo!
03/20/09
03/20/09
I even think the interior is appropriate for the type of car this is, these types of cars are not something you buy based on interior luxuries or quality. You buy them becuase they are big, loud, fast and badass. The sissy stuff is just that, for sissies.
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/21/09
Had it been presented in a different light, would your critique be different?
Had they said "We're shooting to take away 40% of Mustang sales and boot the Challenger to the curb because we're faster and better looking", would you be more forgiving?
Elsewhere you'll find me ranting about not caring about interior bits. That doesn't apply to driver interface.
How are the seats/wheel/shifter/pedal...really?
03/21/09
03/20/09
One can only wonder how limiting a redesign like this will be. Remember when people were shitting on themselves to get at a PT Cruiser? Or a Beetle? When's the last time those designs looked fresh?
Seems to me like the surest way to destroy the market value for a vehicle in a short amount of time is to base a design off the nostalgic pinings of your middle aged focus group. Good luck Chevy, you will need it.
03/20/09
I don't see this design as retro, so much as a truly contemporary design that's obviously traceable to the original. There's plenty of room to evolve this one gracefully (unlike the 2010 Mustang, which I don't think is particularly handsome).
03/20/09
03/20/09