I've always felt that there's a lot "they" aren't telling us about clean diesel. First, the crutch explaining the lack of Euro diesels in the states was that everyone pictured a 1979 300D clattering and smoking down the road, despite the fact that that was 30 years ago and to most young people, a 300D might as well have been a Model T. The second explanation was that the U.S. didn't have the low-sulfur diesel available in Europe that is easier on particulate traps and other modern diesel smog controls--we've now had that fuel for over two years, and big diesel players like BMW, Honda, and Toyota are all no-shows in the U.S. Then, here in ultra smog-tough California, some recent Mercedes and VW diesels were not smog certified even though they were sold in the other 49 states. And finally, the big-hoopla Acura TSX diesel release has been put on hold because they can't get the automatic to pass smog.
Clearly, there's more going on behind the scenes than the average person is aware of, and the end result is that in the U.S., and especially in California, clean diesel still isn't *quite* a mainstream reality (with this Jetta TDI being an obvious footnote). Regardless of how you feel about the Prius (and other gas hybrids), the stark reality is that you have been able to buy one in California since 2001 and use it as a normal car, when you haven't been able to do the same with an oil-burner.
@theeastbaykid: Blame LA's historically based fear of smog.
Ground-level ozone is the big reason that CA opposes diesels. Can't say I blame them. While there's still reasonable doubt that human CO2 emissions cause anything at all, it's proven that smog particulates increase emphysema and cancer at higher rates than normal.
I'm a states' right advocate and I support their right to make a choice for what's right for their people/cities. The crappy flipside of that coin is that CA represents such a huge part of the buying market, manufacturers will rarely sell anything that won't pass muster in CA.
@The Name's Ash78, Housewares: So even clean diesels are still on the hook for ground-level ozone? This could be the elusive "thing" that "they" aren't telling us!
@theeastbaykid: Not the "clean diesels" (marketing-speak!)...I meant that CA was the primary reason that we couldn't get diesels here much over the past 5-8 years. The lack of low-sulphur diesel fuel came into play later on, too.
The current crop of diesels are better, but they had to jump through a lot of hoops to get them there (4-cyl with downstream filters. 6-cyl with filters AND urea injection)
The smart fortwo should never have been in the running. How can something that itty-tiny perform so ... averagely ... in the fuel economy category? Did they make it so small for no reason besides parking?
The awesome bit about diesels is that you can run them on oil palm sap straight out of the tree. Just run it through a filter and go.
@The Name's Ash78, Housewares: To be brutally honest,most people in Europe probably have the opinion that America doesn't care for diesels. I must admit i was pleasantly surprised when i started commenting on Jalopnik that it is not the case.
@layabout: Sadly, the EPA has kept them out for a long time (again, the particulates), in addition to several states that wouldn't allow them, thus invalidating a company's business case for bringing them to the US.
But as for public perception, we have lots of people who remember a time when GM was putting crappy diesels into anything and everything (early 80s), as well as the current plethora of heavy-duty pickup and delivery trucks using diesels. It's so bad, Mercedes and VW both avoid the use of the word "diesel" in their literature for fear of association with that image (tdi or bluetec are preferred)
I'm glad a diesel was selected as the winner. The more people who buy them, the smaller the price difference will become between the diesel engine and the gasoline engine.
I probably will not be buying a Jetta TDI any time soon but not because I have anything against VW - I have owned three Jettas and a GTI. Before I bought the GTI I crunched some numbers on a TDI Golf and, although I was commuting about 100 miles a day, the price premium for the engine and the fuel did not save me very much money over a four-year span. I went for the 1.8T and higher trim level instead.
@pres_has something cool after his name too.: Toyota for me, with the 2L engine. Nice. I understand that as swaps into the gas engines go, it's not too bad, so I could conceivably find something several years younger and install the 2L and be happy.
Off thread now,i've been waiting for Mr Wert on CNBC, they just said a loan has been agreed for the big 3 & shares have risen. Also Honda to cut U.S. vehicle output by 18,000 units.
@layabout: You guys are tougher on CO2, but more lax on particulates and Nitrogen Oxides. It's basically the reverse here, but it's changing.
I suspect the 335d didn't make it because the EPA mpg numbers are only 34 hwy (vs Jetta's 41), which is only incrementally better than most 4-cyl cars of that size. Never mind all the power you get from the BMW in return, which is obviously something a true consumer would consider. A 320d would have taken the award, I suspect.
@graverobber- My Yugo Nova!: I haven't seen pricing announced on it anywhere yet. Something tells me "real life" price will be right there with the 335i, making the decision almost impossible.
@brandegee: Yeah,it costs a lot,i always view new cars as cars i could possibly own after a few years depreciation. But credit where its due that is a fine engine,& i don't generally like diesels.
I'd still consider it, but I'm waiting to see how the first couple years of the US-spec diesel turn out.
My ride (98 Passat) has been reasonably reliable. It's incrementally more expensive than a comparable Accord or Maxima might be, but not enough to drive me away from the brand completely. I still have yet to find a brand whose entire lineup are the best driving experience at almost all of their respective price points (especially the sub-$30k models)
11/20/08
Clearly, there's more going on behind the scenes than the average person is aware of, and the end result is that in the U.S., and especially in California, clean diesel still isn't *quite* a mainstream reality (with this Jetta TDI being an obvious footnote). Regardless of how you feel about the Prius (and other gas hybrids), the stark reality is that you have been able to buy one in California since 2001 and use it as a normal car, when you haven't been able to do the same with an oil-burner.
11/20/08
Ground-level ozone is the big reason that CA opposes diesels. Can't say I blame them. While there's still reasonable doubt that human CO2 emissions cause anything at all, it's proven that smog particulates increase emphysema and cancer at higher rates than normal.
I'm a states' right advocate and I support their right to make a choice for what's right for their people/cities. The crappy flipside of that coin is that CA represents such a huge part of the buying market, manufacturers will rarely sell anything that won't pass muster in CA.
11/20/08
11/20/08
The current crop of diesels are better, but they had to jump through a lot of hoops to get them there (4-cyl with downstream filters. 6-cyl with filters AND urea injection)
11/20/08
(besides the fact that it is cheaper to buy, and use, a Prius hybrid)
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The awesome bit about diesels is that you can run them on oil palm sap straight out of the tree. Just run it through a filter and go.
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11/20/08
Next year, we'll have BMW and possibly Honda, as well.
Not sure why Nissan is dragging their feet on bringing the Renault powerplants over, though.
11/20/08
11/20/08
But as for public perception, we have lots of people who remember a time when GM was putting crappy diesels into anything and everything (early 80s), as well as the current plethora of heavy-duty pickup and delivery trucks using diesels. It's so bad, Mercedes and VW both avoid the use of the word "diesel" in their literature for fear of association with that image (tdi or bluetec are preferred)
11/20/08
11/20/08
11/20/08
12/31/08
11/20/08
11/20/08
I probably will not be buying a Jetta TDI any time soon but not because I have anything against VW - I have owned three Jettas and a GTI. Before I bought the GTI I crunched some numbers on a TDI Golf and, although I was commuting about 100 miles a day, the price premium for the engine and the fuel did not save me very much money over a four-year span. I went for the 1.8T and higher trim level instead.
11/20/08
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11/20/08
True.
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11/20/08
I suspect the 335d didn't make it because the EPA mpg numbers are only 34 hwy (vs Jetta's 41), which is only incrementally better than most 4-cyl cars of that size. Never mind all the power you get from the BMW in return, which is obviously something a true consumer would consider. A 320d would have taken the award, I suspect.
11/20/08
11/20/08
11/20/08
11/20/08
11/20/08
11/20/08
My ride (98 Passat) has been reasonably reliable. It's incrementally more expensive than a comparable Accord or Maxima might be, but not enough to drive me away from the brand completely. I still have yet to find a brand whose entire lineup are the best driving experience at almost all of their respective price points (especially the sub-$30k models)
11/20/08
11/20/08