Jalopnik
BusinessWeek's David Kiley had a fun idea to spend some time talking with some industry heavy-hitters about CAFE and fuel economy. He spent a few minutes talking to both former Toyota USA President and current #2 at Chrysler, Jim Press, as well as GM Vice-Chairman "Maximum" Bob Lutz. The topic was the fuel efficient topic of choice among greenies, hybrids. In the article, Lutz claimed the upcoming Chevy Vaporware Volt might end up with a sticker price at around $48K. Normally that would make a pretty spectacular lead for us, especially given it's a price tag that's betwen 33% and 60% higher than originally stated by the brand all about the 'merican revolution and the GM exec born from jets. Fortunately for him, his comments were eclipsed by Press on the Prius.
And why not, as Press noted the inherent unfairness of competition from Toyota in the hybrid game, saying
"...the Japanese government paid for 100% of the development of the battery and hybrid system that went into the Toyota Prius."Phew, that's nice work by an automaker if you can get it. Here in the US, we're lucky if we can get a bailout for our automakers if they're about to go bankrupt. Oh wait, sorry Jim, Chrysler already used up that chit. But, we know how keen US politicians seem to be on helping out an industry which employs millions of people and effects almost every American's daily life, we're assuming similar plans are in the works. Yeah, right. [MSNBC]
Comments
I knew those evil Japanese were cheating. They took 're jobs!
Really, when is Minimum Rick going to put a muzzle on Bob Lutz? Half of what he says is true and all of it is bad press.
Why would the U.S. government subsidize battery R&D when it benefits neither oil nor agribusiness?
The Volt SHOULD have cost $42,000, but then they had to tack on the Lutz CAFE premium.
I can't wait to rub it in the faces of Toyota when I'm cruising down the road in my Chevy Volt jamming out to The Chinese Democracy.
I love socialism
None of this surprises me at all. I don't why this country can't have a Manhattan Project type approach to solve some of these issues. Of course if I were Honda, Fuji Heavy Industries, etc. I would be asking the Japanese government why didn't I have access to that technology. At least Ed Begley Jr. will be able to afford the Volt, me not so much.
I wonder if there is a dollar figure associated with the development cost of the prius. Anyhow Hybrid techonology is still too expensive to be economically viable on a large scale. For now it is just a fashion statement.
@deckard97: It's called Moore's Law. Early adopters are paying off the R&D.
In the case of the Prius, they're paying for a smaller chunk of the R&D. That's the difference between a $22k Prius and a $45k Volt.
@deckard97: Not anymore. They're selling like hot cakes to each and everyone.
@JantheMan: Was that sarcasm?
Fifty-thousand dollars.
This reminds me of the hybrid test where you take the amount of extra money it takes to get a hybrid, then calculate the difference in price vs the amount saved in gas and discover that you'll have to own the car for 14 years before you save any money.
The Chevy Volt is a lot like the Tesla in my mind. They say they want to save the world, but all they want to do is make another high priced fashion statement (only without the luxury, brand name, or drivability.) The problem with electric cars and hybrids is that they shouldn't be designed to take on Porches and BMWs, they need to compete with the fits, and versas. You don't change the world by pricing the car out of the reach of the average person.
Also, why in god's name would the government pay to develop electric technology for chrysler? They really don't benefit from injecting a ton of cash into the manufacturing economies of Mexico and various Asian countries. (btw, if you think that Chrysler makes a poor quality product right now, just wait until all of the Canadian plants are closed down.)
@badco/LoJ: Moore's Law has nothing to do with early adopters and R&D.
I'd be more in favor of R&D subsidies to US Auto makers if there was any indication their product development leadership wouldn't completely screw things up.
Lutz sounds a lot like a soccer coach I had one time. Whenever we won it was because of how awesome the team (under his leadership) was. Whenever we lost, it was because the ref was an idiot.
So...is $48,000 still in reach for the nauseating bulldog-foot-lickin' set?
@Evil-Jeremy: I suppose the first telephones, tv sets and let's not forget the first cars where all fashion statements in your book? (or any other innovation)
They where all expensive and only for the few, and not really "needed" at the time... but thanks to early adopters willing to invest in thee items, they became something we can't live without.
The Japanese government may have paid for the battery development, but the US government paid for 80mpg diesel-electric hybrids under Bill Clinton... among other things. I wonder what was done with those prototypes.
Funny how US auto execs seem to get very forgetful about the advanced cars that the US goverment money resulted in.
The difference is that Toyota spent the extra money on R&D and put the Prius in production.
In contrast, GM, Ford and Chrysler allocated extra money to lawyers and lobbists, killed their electric car projects (which also included a diesel-electric GM EV1 in development) and brought out more SUVs so they could make more short term profits.
Somewhere, Ted Kaczynski is writing a new book; "Industrial Society and its Future II: The Empire Strikes Out"
@ash78:
You mean there won't be a Cafe lite version LOL
@grzydj: COTD for sure.
@petersterncan: [en.wikipedia.org]
@grzydj: Not with the current Axl strike, you won't!
Maybe in Japan they don't have to worry about some Rambus type lawsuit.
One more time: 60's falcons weighed in under 3000 lbs, and are 2-3x the car of a current civic, which weighs more.
So...
How about a 2500lb, 120hp car? Won't that have good performance, 35+mpg's, and be under $46k?
Stop wasting effort on damping the motion of my glovebox door, engineering proper door closing sound, and integrating bluetooth, handsfree, butt-cheek-shape-sensitive autostart, and just build a reasonably sized car with AC and power windows.
It'll solve all of our problems
@Mad_Science: Yes, it's closely related. Transistor density doubles every two years precisely because early adopters are paying for the R&D. This model is commonly applied to technological innovation in general.
And yeah, I'd agree that American automakers would probably muck it up.
It's a good case for research grants.
@badco/LoJ: Moore's law is about that the number of transistors that can be inexpensively placed on an integrated circuit is increasing exponentially, doubling approximately every two years.
[en.wikipedia.org]'s_law
Let Chevy pay to develop their own system with government subsidies. They, and other car makers, have fought and ignored every attempt to get them to research improving gas mileage over the past decades. The Japanese car companies have steadily worked towards improving fuel economy. They deserve a cookie and funding from the Japanese government. If the American car companies were given anything, it'd be a reward for arrogance, shortsightedness, and stupidity. Their mistakes SHOULD cost them money, and it'll cost even more when they bring out a $38k volt and sell six of them.
No more bitching, no more whining, be a good little car company and do what you should have done all along: STFU and give us jalops the cars we want.
@4_Chan!!!!!11!one: Not sure...if Japan is a socialist country...yes. If it is not...well...lets say it is
But it something with government fundings and peoples car..they attend to sell in large numbers independent of left or right.
Beetle
Trabant
Lada
Prius
@ash78:
I think you need a Dr Pepper.
[www.billboard.com]
Wow, that's sour grapes from Chrysler. Good thing the US never throws money at its car makers...hmm...let's search Wikipedia....
[en.wikipedia.org]
Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles
The US spent about $1.5 billion on this program, exclusively with Ford, GM, and Chrysler.
Let's see...this resulted in the 72 mpg ESX-3 for Chrysler, [en.wikipedia.org] and the 80 mpg GM Precept [en.wikipedia.org] back in 2000 or so. And how is it that the Big Three are somehow behind on hybrid technology? Oh year - they were too busy building SUV's back then.
@saabophile2: good point. And at the time of course, gas prices were near all-time low. The US squandered an opportunity to be a market leader not a follower in the efficient/alternative fuel markets and wasted a boat-load of taxpayer cash in the process. Now Lutz is acting like a welfare-recipient complaining because he spent all his money on booze and needs more for food... but we both know he's just going to spend it on booze again.
Regardless of who paid the bills for Toyota's battery tech Mr. Press,
what was Chrysler developing in 1994?
They were making Expresso...
Yeah, I'd want to the Government to invest in a car that
looks like it was carved out of a block of processed cheese.
The American Automakers all ready have mucked it up.
As far as Reserch grants the US car makers have all ready recieved 1.5 Billon from the tax payers to build the hybrid see the 1990's Supercar, PNGV program. Toyota originaly wanted to take part in the program improve the competitiveness of the us car makers. Toyota beleved they were serious and built there own hybrid.
I the US carmakers goals were to delay CAFE laws from changing, once it came time to put up or shut up on the Hybrid.. The car makers sold the goverement on the next pie in the sky idea of hydrogen cars (aka the FREDOM car)
All I can say is the japanese goverment is luckey in they get value for there investment where as the united states just gets more debt.
Can we go back to the electric cars around the start of the 20th century? We had them 100 years ago. Will there always be a dichotomy between econo-rolling (low speed, mostly urban) and grunt?
Some of you people have been so throuroghly "greenwashed" it's unbelievable.
Yeah, the Japanese are the ONLY ones who've been working on better fuel milage, and ignoring "those evil profitable SUV's". Do you clowns even know at all the rest of Toyota's lineup? Cuz there certainly are no SUV/trucks's in it? (wait, what's this Tundra, it must be a fuel sipping super tech 35 mpg truck.) Outside of the Prius, there isn't some big mpg improvement in japanese cars compared to their domestic competition.
The ignorance of people and Toyota's success at appearing "green" just with the Prius blows my mind.
@rlj676:
You seem to be under the impression that GM, Ford and Chrysler... and the rest of the auto industry aren't positioning themselves as the greenest car makers on the planet.
Wow. The Japanese goverment spent all that money to develop a car that still cant beat the mileage of a 1986 Chevy Sprint. Now THAT is a testament to global technological progress. The Prius is the biggest joke played on Green Freaks ever.
2008 Chevrolet Sprint ER:
3 cyl, 1.0 L, Manual 5-spd, Regular 44 53
2007 Toyota Prius: MPG (city) 48 MPG (highway) 45
MPG (combined) 46
@rlj676: New US Models Debuted by Toyota since 2001:
Sequoia
Highlander
Tundra
and Prius.
Seems like more of their R&D is going towards building US-style SUVs than saving the world. You could throw the Yaris in there, but it's more of a redesigned Echo with a name change. They didn't enter any new market area there.
Enough with the gas mileage comparisons of old and new cars. Cars today have to have airbags and other safety equipment (mandated by the government) and greater crashworthiness (demanded by consumers), therefore they can't be as light as cars of yore.
@Isetta: Especially Nissan, since they're paying Toyota to license the technology for the Altima Hybrid.
Hold on here--I think everyone's forgetting that by the time the Volt comes out, $48,000 will buy you a flat screen TV and a couple of Big Macs.
@Bluegoose:
You're comparing a sub-compact with rollup windows to a mid sized family sedan with every single safety feature and convenience known to mankind crammed into it.
@Bluegoose: You are comparing apples to porcupines when you attempt to compare the mid-size/modern Prius and the subcompact/ancient Sprint.
Ignoring the rest of the details on why it is a shitty comparison, I'd much rather have the Prius in the event of a crash or the need to climb a long hill and keep up with traffic. Having owned a 3cyl subcompact from the 80's, I'd be hard pressed to ever want to drive one again despite my love of small cars.
Ha ha ha, good April fools day joke..like anyone would actually believe that a $48K POS would actually sell...Ha ha!!!111!1!!1
@POLAЯ ATHOL: actually, Chrysler was working on recyclable cars, which was the hot touch issue of the time. They had figured out a way to mold the color into the panels, which meant no paint required and therefore, much less environmental impact.
However, customer focus groups said "blech! it's not shiny!" and the program faded away.
As for Chrysler being bailed out, the government didn't hand them any money - they only guaranteed the loans. Chrysler paid them back before they were even due.
Chrysler, before Daimler's rape/pillage/squander, was easily the most progressive US automaker.